• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Would you shoot a home invader?

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Because it does not work.
It works just fine. The guy gets arrested. You show not only him but your neighborhood that you're not afraid to hold your own against would be threats. He gets justice. He probably also has a higher chance to change his ways, given that it's a Christian taking him down and not some heartless jerk or whatever the case may be. Tell me just how it 'does not work'.

The Cross is seen as an 'offence' against taken for granted assumptions that weakness signifies failure.
That has nothing to do with what I asked in way of evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Saying an argument is dishonest is like saying your argument is flawed. He's not calling you dishonest...he's saying your argument is dishonest. Address the post, not the poster...I don't know exactly how he believes your argument is dishonest, though. Perhaps he can clarify that.
I am addressing his post. I'm addressing his post where he accuses me of arguing dishonestly, which is a blight on my character. Since when do we allow that of people who are supposed to be the example?

And you know that mods are human too and we make mistakes. Don't think that little letter by our name changes that.
That little excuse no longer flies in my book.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
It would seem then that if a burglar entered your home, you would be led to ask him to join you for tea?
I don't try to answer that kind of hypothetical situation because no algorithmic rule (do this in this situation) is actually going to cover things - if it did evil wouldn't be a serious problem in the first place.

Part (most?) of being a disciple of Jesus is developing the virtues - strengths of character - in the normal times so that you can see and do what needs to be done when the crisis happens. And recognising that we won't always succeed in the short term - again, if we could evil wouldn't be a real problem.


But as soon as you resort to the world's way of doing things instead of Jesus' way, the way of the cross, you've sided with the very evil you aim to stop. Its one thing, in the panic of the crisis, to not live up to the Jesus way (we all constantly fall short of that in much easier moments), but thinking in the non-Jesus way in cool light of day building the wrong character for the crisis, and guaranteeing failure.

I'm really not trying to come across as being a smarty pants, but your argument appears to say that defending our families is against God's word, based on Jesus' reaction to Peter when Jesus is arrested.
I'm using those as illustrations - you thinking in the same mode as Peter.
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
505
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,141.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It works just fine. The guy gets arrested. You show not only him but your neighborhood that you're not afraid to hold your own against would be threats. He gets justice. He probably also has a higher chance to change his ways, given that it's a Christian taking him down and not some heartless jerk or whatever the case may be. Tell me just how it 'does not work'.

Now you are bringing in other particular circumstances to justify your position. The issue is about 'shooting a home invader' and not about 'justice'.

That has nothing to do with what I asked in way of evidence.

It has everything to do with what you asked. If you don't understand the meaning of the Cross then you need some immediate education.

The Cross is an 'offense' because it represents the very thing you seek to avoid - weakness. Letting yourself be crucified is not, now was it, the perceived way for the Messiah to bring about his Kingdom. Peter said, 'No way'. Peter got it wrong, and so have you.

Evil can never be defeated through the use of strength. There may be some temporary relief to one's anger and depression, but retaliation, whether in the form of self-defense or other means has never solved the underlying issue and never will.

I posted this earlier but it appears you missed reading it ....

The pervasive aspect of evil was vividly demonstrated in the tragedy that engulfed an Amish school in Pennsylvania (USA) in October 2006 where five school girls died at the hands of a lone gunman. The Amish community offered no TV interview, no press release, no commentary. What they did offer was forgiveness. Through forgiveness, the gunman’s surviving widow and three children received the healing they so desperately sought and needed.

No claims for 'self-defense', no hint of retribution, not even any need to claim 'justice' - just silence. The only thing offered was forgiveness. One of the greatest acts of Christian witness I have seen.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
D

dies-l

Guest
Upon what basis?

I addressed the exegesis of the passage in an earlier post. In this passage, Jesus appears to providing guidance in how we respond to a wide variety of situations. He specifically references an act of violence, an act of forced servitude, and an act of theft. But, we can infer from the passage that the application is broader than this and includeas all manner of hurtful, offensive, and insulting conduct. His teaching here is that we are not to "resist an evildoer". This suggests to me that a very strong possibility that Jesus is advocating a form of non-violence.


Ok, so it's okay for mods to accuse members of dishonesty now? Since when?

When you meet a person who is never prone to dishonesty, please let me know. I have never met such a person.

My comment is not a personal attack any more than Romans 3:23 is a personal attack. Rather, it is directed toward your earlier comment that suggested that the idea of a non-violent or pacifist Jesus is clearly contrary to Scripture. My point is that an honest survey of Scripture would at least consider the possibility of a non-violent Jesus and accept the reasonableness that another person might honestly understand Scrupture as presenting such a view. You may very well come to a different conclusion, and this can and should be discussed. But, to conclude that there is no biblical basis whatsoever for a contrary view in this situation cannot be supported by an honest and thorough reading of Scripture.
 
  • Like
Reactions: wayseer
Upvote 0

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I must have missed something - when did Jesus do any killing?
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders--flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
505
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,141.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems; and he has a name inscribed that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, wearing fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name inscribed, "King of kings and Lord of lords."
Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly in midheaven, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of the mighty, the flesh of horses and their riders--flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great."
Rev 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against the rider on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse, the sword that came from his mouth; and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

I am really lost for words. What can I possibly say in the face of such strength?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
I must have missed something - when did Jesus do any killing?
I guessing he's doing the usual "anything the O.T. attributes to God was done by Jesus", instead of the Christian thinking that works the other way - "we look at the human Jesus of Nazareth to see the truth about God".
 
Upvote 0

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I addressed the exegesis of the passage in an earlier post. In this passage, Jesus appears to providing guidance in how we respond to a wide variety of situations. He specifically references an act of violence, an act of forced servitude, and an act of theft. But, we can infer from the passage that the application is broader than this and includeas all manner of hurtful, offensive, and insulting conduct. His teaching here is that we are not to "resist an evildoer". This suggests to me that a very strong possibility that Jesus is advocating a form of non-violence.
It is hardly a certainty, given the context. And it is equally dishonest to treat it as one, as some have. So perhaps rather than attempting to dissuade me of my position, you could look deeper and realize what it is I'm saying.
When you meet a person who is never prone to dishonesty, please let me know. I have never met such a person.
You should get out more, then. I meet them all the time.

My comment is not a personal attack any more than Romans 3:23 is a personal attack. Rather, it is directed toward your earlier comment that suggested that the idea of a non-violent or pacifist Jesus is clearly contrary to Scripture.
I never said it is contrary to Scripture. I said it is not in Scripture.

My point is that an honest survey of Scripture would at least consider the possibility of a non-violent Jesus and accept the reasonableness that another person might honestly understand Scrupture as presenting such a view. You may very well come to a different conclusion, and this can and should be discussed. But, to conclude that there is no biblical basis whatsoever for a contrary view in this situation cannot be supported by an honest and thorough reading of Scripture.
It most certainly can be supported. It's a negative claim. All there need be is no legitimate passages saying that Jesus is against violence, or passages where Jesus either condones or uses violence. Both situations exist to this point, therefore the claim must be true to this point. If you or anyone else has evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it. I've only asked for it multiple times in multiple ways from multiple people, after all.
 
Upvote 0

wayseer

Well-Known Member
Jun 10, 2008
8,226
505
Maryborough, QLD, Australia
✟11,141.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I guessing he's doing the usual "anything the O.T. attributes to God was done by Jesus", instead of the Christian thinking that works the other way - "we look at the human Jesus of Nazareth to see the truth about God".

Don't let then off the hook so lightly.

There are those here who are using scripture to provide ammunition for their own ideologies.
 
Upvote 0

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I guessing he's doing the usual "anything the O.T. attributes to God was done by Jesus", instead of the Christian thinking that works the other way - "we look at the human Jesus of Nazareth to see the truth about God".
Think again before you make assumptions about people's positions.
 
Upvote 0

Zebra1552

Urban Nomad. Literally.
Nov 2, 2007
14,461
820
Freezing, America
✟41,738.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
that too.So we got God in genesis executing judgement upon the wicked and we got judgement being executed on the wicked in revelations.
Now im seeing a pattern here.
Im not promoting a shoot first ask later mentality,but as a last resort when all options are exhausted.
As it should be.
 
Upvote 0