Would you prefer it if “Five point Calvinism” were true?

[Cormack]

The users who would prefer that 5 point Calvinism were true seem very defensive and cagey about the whole exercise. I’d like to invite them to try anew and attempt to share some positive reasons to prefer that 5 point Calvinism were true.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The users who would prefer that 5 point Calvinism were true seem very defensive and cagey about the whole exercise. I’d like to invite them to try anew and attempt to share some positive reasons to prefer that 5 point Calvinism were true.

I don’t see any positive reasons in Calvinism.

 

[Cormack]

I don’t see any positive reasons in Calvinism.

Calvinists in the thread are confirming that by jumping on things like my etiquette, “nobody understands Calvinism,” what (they think) scripture says and a whole host of other red herrings to avoid the point of the topic. Would they prefer it and why, that’s the topic question.

Calvinist writers have compared the theology to a bitter pill or even the stages of grief, seems that those descriptions weren’t far off from the truth of what people are going through trying to find just one reason to prefer it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Calvinists in the thread are confirming that by jumping on things like my etiquette, “nobody understands Calvinism,” what (they think) scripture says and a whole host of other red herrings to avoid the point of the topic. Would they prefer it and why, that’s the topic question.

Calvinist writers have compared the theology to a bitter pill or even the stages of grief, seems that those descriptions weren’t far off from the truth of what people are going through trying to find just one reason to prefer it.

I imagine some Calvinists might say that salvation is 100% all God and thereby it glorifies Him. They see man’s involvement in salvation as taking away God’s glory in some way (When this is not simply taught in Scripture). Abiding with God or Salvation has always been Synergistic.

God does not force save people against their will. It’s just ridiculous to imply otherwise. For why would God be upset at sin by men in the Bible? Could God not stop them from sinning instead of God being angry? This is just the tip of the iceberg of the silliness of Calvinism that just does not add up - IMHO.

 

[Cormack]

I imagine some Calvinists might say that salvation is 100% all God and thereby it glorifies Him.

True, but, if a Calvinist wanted to argue that way, that’s mischaracterising the beliefs of non Calvinists based upon Calvinistic presuppositions.

To believe that other Christians don’t have God doing 100% of the saving because it’s not deterministic or caused by effectual grace is to deny these Christian brothers their own beliefs, since they insist God is doing 100% of the saving without this Calvinistic scheme of things.

Nobody outside of Calvinism denies that God does 100% of the saving, so it’s sort of a strawman to insist that God doing 100% of the saving is a reason to prefer Calvinism specifically, other Christian beliefs have that view.

What other Christian beliefs don’t have is determinism.

 

[Hmm]

No. There are "pure" Calvinists and they don't tend to act more reckless.

So your theory has no data to back it.
Even Jesus didn't act (much) more reckless than others.

Jesus wasn't a Calvanist, neither a "pure" nor an "unpure" one. You do know that don't you?

 

[Hmm]

You haven't sold me on how post#163 will benefit me.
What are the major benefits to me?

Aren't those decisions something you need to take responsibility for?

 

[SkyWriting]

Aren't those decisions something you need to take responsibility for?

Promoting oneself is up to the propogandist.

 

[SkyWriting]

Jesus wasn't a Calvanist, neither a "pure" nor an "unpure" one. You do know that don't you?

It don't matter who you think is what. If you have no facts regarding reckless behavior then you have no thesis to write.

 

[SkyWriting]

Benefit: To think straight Hmm shows that no one truly acts as if everything in life is pre-determined. Otherwise, they could afford to act recklessly - after all, the result was going to happen anyway. Again, why look both ways before crossing the street? Whether you are hit by a car was decided long ago.
You cannot believe that everything is pre-determined and still believe that your conscious decisions have some bearing on what happens to you.

Yes I can. You loose in the prophesy/clairvoyance departments.

No matter what I decide, God already knows what will happen.
So I decide, and God remembers what my decision will be.
All of the future is in God's past.

I get it. It's hard to swallow.
That's the reason for 2000 years of arguing.

 

[Hmm]

So I decide, and God remembers what my decision will be.
All of the future is in God's past.

That sounds rehearsed. Where did you get it from?

 

[zoidar]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No! Limited atonement is the main reason. To me the outmost proof of God being love is Christ sacrificed for the whole human race. If Christ wasn't sacrificed for everyone, I can't see that God is love. I know Reformed say God is love, but I can't see it or understand it (how that can be love) from the Limited atonement aspect.

I wouldn't have that much of a problem being a 4-pointer. Even I'm more of a -pointer now.

 

[Cormack]

“Pure” Calvinists, if there’s

I wouldn't have that much of a problem being a 4-pointer. Even I'm more of a 1-pointer now.

What 1 point still has appeal for you? In my experience perseverance of the saints gets the most traction with non Calvinists.

 

[zoidar]

“Pure” Calvinists, if there’s


What 1 point still has appeal for you? In my experience perseverance of the saints gets the most traction with non Calvinists.

I would say Total depravity, but I don't fully hold the same view of that either. So maybe 0,5-pointer. I acknowledge the unwillingness of man to know God (The biblical God that is).

 

[SkyWriting]

That sounds rehearsed. Where did you get it from?

Today at 5:46 PM

I'm much better at synthesizing conclusions than verbose orations.

 

[Cormack]

I would say Total depravity, but I don't fully hold the same view of that either. So maybe 0,5-pointer. I acknowledge the unwillingness of man to know God (The biblical God that is).

So long as that unwillingness isn’t seen by yourself as an inability to accept the different appeals of God to be reconciled (e.g. prophets, miracles, scripture, preaching, invisible attributes in nature,) then I’d say you can comfortably distance yourself from the T of the tulip.

The unique aspect of the T is that mankind is incapable of turning to God until he does a determining work of grace and changes their will.

 

[Cormack]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in five point Calvinism, would you prefer it if five point Calvinism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Thinking on the topic in light of the T, again I’d have to write no, I’d prefer it if 5 point Calvinism wasn’t true. The “total depravity” argued for by many Calvinists is an absolute maze of hidden assumptions, and one of those assumptions is a moral inability to respond positively to Gods own appeals to be reconciled from the fall.

As I’ve shared many times on CF, according to Calvinism Mankind cannot want God until God wants mankind first. So, for everyone who’s every left us in a state of unbelief, God could have turned their will but didn’t want to, preferring instead to damn the person for eternity.

I don’t see that portrait of God as harmonious with the great Christ of scripture or the Jesus of global personal testimony, who taught things like the Good Samaritan refusing to pass by the injured or the woman caught in adultery.

“Forgive them Father, they know not what they do” makes no sense under Calvinism if God doesn’t really want to forgive waves and waves of people.

The exact image of the Fathers likeness in Christ (if the Father didn’t want to forgive) wouldn’t be asking for the killers at the foot of the cross to be forgiven by the Father.

Think it through my Calvinist friends. . . .

 

[SkyWriting]

But we're not Jesus.

Well, I'm not completely Satan, yet.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With the responses given, and other things going on in my life, I am taking another break for a while.

May you all be blessed in the Lord.

 

[Cormack]

Be blessed, enjoy your time offline and claim that peace @Bible Highlighter.