Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Saint Steven]

Would being “punished” for a while earn the person a place in heaven?

Remedial is not about punishment. Is it punishment for you to go to the hospital and see a doctor?

 

[Albion]

Saint Steven said: ↑
Anyone that doesn't love God hasn't met him yet. End of story.

That is obviously a presumption and not one supported by Scripture. It teaches us that the demons know very well who God (and Christ) is...but still do not have faith, let alone love.

 

[Albion]

Remedial is not about punishment. Is it punishment for you to go to the hospital and see a doctor?

Doctors aren't involved in this. But the entire concept of Purgatory is/was that punishment was good for the person and would make him acceptable to God. So it cannot be a concept that's unthinkable.

 

[Hmm]

They'd probably kill him. At any rate, certain religious types are fond of killing God incarnate. I think it has to do with a warped conception of justice. Justice for them is not so much about that which leads to flourishing life, but that which leads to the punishment of sinners. Certain religious types think they're doing God a favor by killing those who don't do what God wants, even if it's God they must kill.



Definitely, yes. Justice does not obtain until God's intention for flourishing life obtains. God set out to create a good creation where love and life flourish, and since God cannot fail to do what God intends, it only makes sense that everyone will be part of that. Some might have to go through hell to get there, but thats what they get for being so mean spirited.

I know, I know, "But, the bible says!" I can't parse out all the issues the scriptures present for trying to navigate this issue. But the main thrust is pretty clear. God created us for life together in the divine presence, love is the key to participation in the divine plan, and God cannot fail. The cross and resurrection, the indwelling of the Spirit that changes hearts, all are working to ensure divine success. Come hell or high water, God will be all in all. Amen. You may now pass the plate, lol.

Well said. Unfortunately I've gone and left my wallet at home otherwise I would have made a generous donation for that!

 

[bling]

I mean meeting God in the afterlife where there is no room to doubt who it is.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Anyone that doesn't love God hasn't met him yet. End of story.

If the whole issue was just knowing God for certian then why did the angels in heaven rebel and turn against God?
Did satan and the angel who rebelled learn about God and thus are saved in heaven?
I would say some truly knew who Christ was yet He was not the son of God they wanted.
If everything is solved by us being with God in heaven, than why do we spend this short time on earth?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Or you could take the third path of considering that your understanding of God may be wrong.

How does that differ from the two I mentioned?

 

[Saint Steven]

Doctors aren't involved in this. But the entire concept of Purgatory is/was that punishment was good for the person and would make him acceptable to God. So it cannot be a concept that's unthinkable.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Mark 2:17 NIV
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Saint Steven said: ↑
Remedial is not about punishment. Is it punishment for you to go to the hospital and see a doctor?

 

[grasping the after wind]

So, you are claiming that ECT (hell) is worse than pagan idolatry? Very good. We are making some progress then. Thanks.

So, Universalism would be preferable then, correct?
Since hell is worse than pagan idolatry.

Where did you see me even mention the term pagan idolatry or hell? Where did you see me comparing hell to pagan idolatry and coming to a conclusion that one was worse than the other. I am fairly certain that what I actually pointed out was that human sacrifice was very different from eternal torment. I made no subjective value judgement about which was worse morally, ethically or in terms of the amount of pain one would be subject to. Whatever way you may mean "worse" your claim that I expressed such an opinion is incorrect. Is it possible that you so wanted to see that opinion that you imagined that I actually expressed it?

BTW if you had been following the conversations I had previously been involved in on this thread you would be aware that I had already stated that I would prefer universal salvation. Neither my personal preference nor anyone else's has any effect on reality.

 

[Saint Steven]

If the whole issue was just knowing God for certian then why did the angels in heaven rebel and turn against God?
Did satan and the angel who rebelled learn about God and thus are saved in heaven?
I would say some truly knew who Christ was yet He was not the son of God they wanted.
If everything is solved by us being with God in heaven, than why do we spend this short time on earth?

As for your questions, who can say?
I just think that any (most) humans that meet God for the first time in the afterlife would love, rather than hate, him.

This is based on a God who is restoring all of creation. Not the angry volcano god caricature that some believe in.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I mean meeting God in the afterlife where there is no room to doubt who it is.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Anyone that doesn't love God hasn't met him yet. End of story.

 

[Albion]

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

Well, that DOES represent Purgatory correctly, not that any of us has to believe in such a place/state of being.

But, as I said, it shows that the concept cannot be unthinkable among the Christian churches.

 

[Saint Steven]

Neither my personal preference nor anyone else's has any effect on reality.

So you aren't familiar with the power of positive thinking?

 

[Saint Steven]

But, as I said, it shows that the concept cannot be unthinkable among the Christian churches.

That sounds like a small box.

 

[grasping the after wind]

So you aren't familiar with the power of positive thinking?

Positivity is very helpful in becoming much more effective over things one has control over. One ought know the limits of what one has control over.

 

[Hmm]

How does that differ from the two I mentioned?

It's self-evident so pointless trying to explain it to you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Positivity is very helpful in becoming much more effective over things one has control over. One ought know the limits of what one has control over.

No. I think the power of positive thinking is over things you don't have control over. That's the whole point. Changing the atmosphere and direction of circumstances you don't have control over. Otherwise, what's the point? You already have control over them, right?

Saint Steven said: ↑
So you aren't familiar with the power of positive thinking?

 

[sawdust]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No, because it would mean freedom is a joke and having volition would be meaningless.

 

[Saint Steven]

No, because it would mean freedom is a joke and having volition would be meaningless.

Even Universalism still requires a choice. As I understand it.

 

[Hmm]

Even Universalism still requires a choice. As I understand it.

Yes, as I understand it too there has to be a choice for God but this choice can be made in whatever is meant by ”hell”. There are Bible verses that suggest that this is permitted but, as usual, a proof text war is pretty futile so I'm not going to engage in that - we usually believe what we want to believe on this issue.

 

[sawdust]

Even Universalism still requires a choice. As I understand it.

Does it? So a hundred, thousand, million years of torture allows one to make a choice freely?

 

[Albion]

Yes, as I understand it too there has to be a choice for God but this choice can be made in whatever is meant by ”hell”. There are Bible verses that suggest that this is permitted but, as usual, a proof text war is pretty futile so I'm not going to engage in that - we usually believe what we want to believe on this issue.

Somewhere in here we have do admit that those who recognize that God is not only loving but just as well. That's a difficult point to arrive at in debates like this one, but somewhere or other it has to be acknowledged.