Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Neogaia777]

Of course @Neogaia777! God’s truth is a beautiful thing

Good, I am glad, and I will pray that He will, if not now, then at least then, by then, etc...

PM me anytime you wish...

God's Peace and Love

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I’ve seen it first hand with many evangelists, @MMXX. They’re terrible at their “calling.” I don’t know who really did the calling some are so bad.

We get into fights sometimes on my TV or Radio, etc, lol...

Man they are sensitive bunch sometimes, lol...

God Bless!

 

[Cormack]

PM me anytime you wish...

I feel the same about you my dude. Building bridges with straight peace and love.

 

[ozso]

I’ve seen it first hand with many evangelists, @MMXX. They’re terrible at their “calling.” I don’t know who really did the calling some are so bad.

I'm not saying the the ones I've heard haven't quoted scripture. But a lot of what I've heard them say is a matter of reasoning.

 

[ozso]

Quite right! I'll need to up my game, but with Hell debunked, what is left? The evidence for annihilation in the Scriptures seemed scant to me, and anyway the text says that Death will be defeated. God even jeers at Death. See First Corinthians 15:21-23, for all shall be made alive and nothing is said about any of them sent on to Hell or reduced to ashes. With Death defeated, how can anyone then be dead and/or in Hell? Logic excludes it. I'm not saying all enter the Kingdom right away or that there is no punishment - but the final outcome seems clear to me, or how else is God the Father to become All in all?

If there is reconciliation by way of hell, that most certainly is not the path I would want to take. Or see anyone else take.

 

[ozso]

As a side note, on my way to work I was listening on the radio to a Monsignor who's performed a lot of exorcisms. And he said in talking to demons, commanding them to tell the truth in the name of Jesus Christ, he would ask them the following questions.

(All answers given grudgingly through gritted teeth)

Does Satan love you?

No.

Does Jesus love you?

Yes.

Was following Satan a mistake?

Yes.

This was, Msgr. Stephen J. Rossetti, Ph.D., the President of the St. Michael Center for Spiritual Renewal and a licensed psychologist and author.

 

[Hmm]

Can you imagine if apologists stuck to just quoting scriptures? Or pastors giving sermons? Or evangelists? Or missionaries? Or all the books written on Christianity?

If we only stuck to scripture, we could "win" any discussion on here simply by posting the entire Bible before our "opponent" does

 

[ozso]

If we only stuck to scripture, we could "win" any discussion on here simply by posting the entire Bible before our "opponent" does

Agreed. 50 proof texts only equals 1% of the Bible.

 

[Hmm]

Agreed. 50 proof texts only equals 1% of the Bible.

Online Bible | Biblica - The International Bible Society

I rest my case

 

[ozso]

Online Bible | Biblica - The International Bible Society

I rest my case

Oh yeah?

Catholic Bible with Apocrypha

 

[Albion]

Like I've said twice already, there's a much stronger case for it than what you've caught on forum threads.

But actually there isn't. The "supporting" Bible verses are scant and subject to several different interpretations. I gave a couple of examples.

So a person who strongly believes in the value of Scripture almost HAS to take as definitive the Bible's numerous references to the unsaved being outcast from God, and for good. That doesn't mean that what this condition will be like is settled, but...universal salvation? No.

 

[Albion]

But God is a good guy surely and only a real meanie would consign someone to ECT.

We seem to be at an impasse, but how can we justify following our own and rather imprecise emotions when deciding this RATHER THAN the word of God?

 

[BNR32FAN]

More like their evidence is arbitrarily dismissed.

Not arbitrarily, based on the majority of scripture.

 

[ozso]

Not arbitrarily, based on the majority of scripture.

It appears arbitrary to me a lot of the time. I see slews of verses posted against it, and I find that often many don't really even address the issue. And some that do, don't really cancel out UR. So I find that the so called majority shrinks under scrutiny.

 

[ozso]

But actually there isn't. The "supporting" Bible verses are scant and subject to several different interpretations. I gave a couple of examples.

So a person who strongly believes in the value of Scripture almost HAS to take as definitive the Bible's numerous references to the unsaved being outcast from God, and for good. That doesn't mean that what this condition will be like is settled, but...universal salvation? No.

How thoroughly have you looked into it? For insurance Lazarus Short painstakingly researched the Bible regarding it for two years. How does your amount of research compare to his?

 

[Hmm]

We seem to be at an impasse, but how can we justify following our own and rather imprecise emotions when deciding this RATHER THAN the word of God?

Precision can be at the expense of losing the bigger picture. We can be precise and find verses that (seemingly at least) talk about eternal hell but to do so we have to ignore all the counter verses and the idea of a God of unlimited grace.

 

[ozso]

We seem to be at an impasse, but how can we justify following our own and rather imprecise emotions when deciding this RATHER THAN the word of God?

I think what you really mean is, rather than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the word of God.

What misguided hubris they display in going by their interpretation rather than yours.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

... ... the word of God?

... rather than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the word of God ...

I have a question for you.

Assume we agree
1) Only God can properly perceive objective reality. We see in part.
2) Whatever is written in the Bible - is detailing some of "objective reality".
3) We read the Bible.

How do we know we have properly perceived / understood the "Objective Reality"?
Ordinarily - if you need accuracy, you devise a test of some sort and can determine accuracy. A measuring stick or something like that.

What measuring stick can we use to measure the accuracy of our conclusions drawn from the Bible?

My thoughts were this:
There is no way to know if what we have understood to be correct, is actually correct (objective reality / proven).
We can be satisfied our conclusions are true, but not prove them true.

We will just have to do our very best to sincerely review our conclusions, be honest and accept, that we don't know. Like scientists would do when they discover new per. Observe, hypothesis, test/predict, pass test/get a prediction correct / assume your conclusion is correct - you're accurate

I cannot see any other way.
Does everyone else think this is the case? Or just me?

 

[RickReads]

The only thing that users can resort to is returning to the safe space of their preferred verses, not what God prefers, so they end up sucking on their biblical pacifier.

Bit of an oxymoron there, resorting to using the Bible instead of what God prefers. That sounds really strange to me.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I think what you really mean is, rather than YOUR INTERPRETATION of the word of God.

What misguided hubris they display in going by their interpretation rather than yours.

I have a question for you.

Assume we agree
1) Only God can properly perceive objective reality. We see in part.
2) Whatever is written in the Bible - is detailing some of "objective reality".
3) We read the Bible.

How do we know we have properly perceived / understood the "Objective Reality"?
Ordinarily - if you need accuracy, you devise a test of some sort and can determine accuracy. A measuring stick or something like that.

What measuring stick can we use to measure the accuracy of our conclusions drawn from the Bible?

My thoughts were this:
There is no way to know if what we have understood to be correct, is actually correct (objective reality / proven).
We can be satisfied our conclusions are true, but not prove them true.

We will just have to do our very best to sincerely review our conclusions, be honest and accept, that we don't know. Like scientists would do when they discover new per. Observe, hypothesis, test/predict, pass test/get a prediction correct / assume your conclusion is correct - you're accurate

I cannot see any other way.
Does everyone else think this is the case? Or just me?

Do you see it that way too?

That we can never prove that our perception / conclusion of the meaning of "The Word of God" is correct, and so we do not know
???

OPEN QUESTION
Anyone can chime in.

How do you Prove (pretty sure that's a maths term) your conclusion is accurate.
If you cannot prove, is it fair to say you know?
Ought you better say "I think...", or "consensus on what the evidence indicates is that ...", or "at present, we see only that the evidence indicates..."