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No.Do you rely on forum posts as your source for theological study?
More like their evidence is arbitrarily dismissed.
That's right, many verses and ECF quotes have been given that either support Universalism or at least suggest that the idea is not completely idiotic.
Anyone can easily use a whole list of scripture from however many books they need. Collectively and say here is my doctrine. Everyone is going to be saved and go to heaven.
But where is the choice? What if people do not desire to go and be with God?
It is a persons choice and I do not hate anyone here, nor judge anyone here, or care if people make remarks to me that they have been in the faith longer than me none of that matters.
But what does matter to me is the truth... because the truth will set you free ; so it says in the bible
Thank you for your reply @Hmm
In concurring with; even after earth; I would believe God still would be calling out to his creations that have not come around to know truth and maybe those in the kingdom can go out to help them. That is something I desire to believe in, but that is in my own heart of desire to continue to help others for the Love of God.
What was that "scriptural evidence?" The great majority of the posts here that favored universalism talked about God being forgiving and merciful and that Christ died for the sins of the whole world...not one of which even deals with the subject of universal salvation.I think the same and that's Universalism in a nutshell. I don't apply the label Universalist to myself btw - I just think it's the option devoutly to be wished as per the topic of the thread. I've also not heard any convincing evidence that the idea is not scriptural - on the contrary I've been surprised by the scriptual evidence and writings from the ECFs (some good quotes and links have been given in this thread) that support the idea.
What was that "scriptural evidence?"
Well, sure there would be a disagreement for the reason that's already been referred to several times. People (or some of them) will continue to make Christianity over into their own image. They will believe what they want to have be the truth and as for Scripture...it is just ignored.There's obviously no knockdown proof that will convince everyone on either side of the argument otherwise we'd all be in agreement.
I think the same and that's Universalism in a nutshell. I don't apply the label Universalist to myself btw - I just think it's the option devoutly to be wished for as per the topic of the thread. I've also not heard any convincing evidence that the idea is not scriptural - on the contrary I've been surprised by the scriptual evidence and writings from the ECFs (some good quotes and links have been given in this thread) that support the idea.
The way the discussion has turned, I feel impelled to post this, and leave it at that. It is the distillation of over two years of inquiry below the surface of a very ordinary King James Bible.
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else.
The only cure for ignorance is education. I suggest you hit the books.You are correct. After all is said and done, the conventional belief that some are saved and some are lost is Biblical, while the Universalist argument rests mainly on what the human would like God to do.
So, for all the chit chat we've experienced on this thread, this is still the Controversial Christian Theology forum, and Scripture still decides this issue.
The Original Post was sensible for having asked what we would do IF we could have it our way, but inevitably the discussion drifted away from that question.
The one with the most verses wins? Is that how it works.Try lining up those few, unspecific verses against the pile of Scriptural evidence that teaches the other view. The case for Universalism fades fast.
If you have none, you may want to frame the issue that way. But the fact is that one side has plenty of evidence and it's strong, whereas the other has very little and it's rather speculative.The one with the most verses wins? Is that how it works.
The way the discussion has turned, I feel impelled to post this, and leave it at that. It is the distillation of over two years of inquiry below the surface of a very ordinary King James Bible.
1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”
2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.
3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.
4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.
5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.
6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.
7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.
8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all...as we see in I Corinthians 15.
9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.
10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.
12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.
13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.
14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.
15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.
16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.
17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.
18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.
19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.
20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.
21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.
22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.
23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.
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