Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

Cormack · Jul 12, 2021

That seems like a pretty large (late) proviso @Fervent.

Who do you believe is “demeaning” Gods word in the thread? You did share you were writing to someone who wrote “the Bible is just the opinion of man,” (emphasis mine,) doing that in quotations, so I’m assuming you have someone in mind.

I’d hate to exchange about someone in the chat as if they weren’t here.

Fervent · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
That seems like a pretty large (late) proviso @Fervent.

Who do you believe is “demeaning” Gods word in the thread? You did share you were writing to someone who wrote “the Bible is just the opinion of man,” (emphasis mine,) doing that in quotations, so I’m assuming you have someone in mind.

I’d hate to exchange about someone in the chat as if they weren’t here.

Perhaps I didn't make it apparent enough from the beginning, but I think if you go back through and read you will see it was present and you imposed an alternative meaning on my words(which is why I said you'd made an unwarranted and uncharitable assumption). Yes, it was prompted by discussion in this thread but I didn't mean it as a call-out nor will I call them out now. If you want to go back through the thread and see the conversations, they're there. I have no dog in this fight, whether hell exists and in what form is God's perogative and I trust His judgment in any case.

Hmm · Jul 12, 2021

Fervent said:
It's a question of origin, because ultimately we have to decide whether we're going to accept God as He tells us He exists, or if we're going to try to fashion one to our liking.

That suggests that it's a matter of overcoming pride and passively receiving God's word as if that's something that's just out there, written in an unambiguous language. But it's more of an active process because we have try to work out what it's saying, which is why there is so much disagreement and evolution in understanding over time.

Fervent said:
Is there room for critical consideration? Sure, but when that crosses over into picking and choosing which Bible passages are true we have simply appointed ourselves as judge.

But then it's no longer critical thinking as you say.

ozso · Jul 12, 2021

RickReads said:
Disagreeing with you doesn`t mean I misunderstood you.

Your replies give me the impression you weren't really reading my posts. And that I'd have to keep repeating myself if I continued.

Fervent · Jul 12, 2021

Hmm said:
That suggests that it's a matter of overcoming pride and passively receiving God's word as if that's something that's just out there, written in an unambiguous language. But it's more of an active process because we have try to work out what it's saying, which is why there is so much disagreement and evolution in understanding over time.

But then it's no longer critical thinking as you say.

I'd say it depends what we're talking about, as I'm not talking about picking an interpretation and sticking with it. I'm talking about either honestly contending with it, going in and trying to find what the best interpretation is no matter where you want it to be and wrestling with passages that seem to contradict our opinions and finding escapes. Sometimes we'll have to return to a passage multiple times to see if what we see is really in there, sometimes we'll find some mediating position. Its ok to disagree, it's ok to hold out and not accept what a passage appears to mean and to appeal to alternative scholarship(assuming it was not sought out for the sole purpose of maintaining a belief), but what we can't do is dismiss what's there entirely. Either we accept that the whole Bible is God's word, or we are simply looking for confirmation of our own opinions.

Cormack · Jul 12, 2021

Fervent said:
Either we accept that the whole Bible is God's word, or we are simply looking for confirmation of our own opinions.

And this is based entirely upon your continued non-direct interaction around a mystery poster who you won’t name because these aren’t call out posts?

So you can continue to represent or misrepresent their views but also refuse to share their name, so they’re unable to correct any errors you might be making with regards to their perspective.

That’s a very odd position, @Fervent.

It seemed to me earlier that you were trying to write you don’t want people to reject the Bible as Gods word, but if that’s the thrust of the argument there isn’t much more of value to add there.

I haven’t seen anyone in the topic reject the idea that the scriptures are God breathed.

Fervent · Jul 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

Cormack said:
And this is based entirely upon your continued non-direct interaction around a mystery poster who you won’t name because these aren’t call out posts?

So you can continue to represent or misrepresent their views but also refuse to share their name, so they’re unable to correct any errors you might be making with regards to their perspective.

That’s a very odd position, @Fervent.

It seemed to me earlier that you were trying to write you don’t want people to reject the Bible as Gods word, but if that’s the thrust of the argument there isn’t much more of value to add there.

I haven’t seen anyone in the topic reject the idea that the scriptures are God breathed.

It wasn't meant to be a call out post, I was simply responding to Hmm's statements to attempt to clarify.

Cormack · Jul 12, 2021

Fervent said:
It wasn't meant to be a call out post, I was simply responding to Hmm's statements to attempt to clarify.

You believe that quote from @Saint Steven denies that the Bible is Gods word or God breathed? I mean, I know lots of Christians who believe both that the Bible is inspired by God as He draws along men, even using their perspective.

Is there anything more specific to argue your point?

RickReads · Jul 12, 2021

MMXX said:
Your replies give me the impression you weren't really reading my posts. And that I'd have to keep repeating myself if I continued.

I`ve read all of your posts, all of Steve`s, and all of Cormack's. I`m a poor, slow typist but I can read with comprehension, faster than most people. It`s a gift.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
1. it only matters what God thinks.
2. what I think (e.g. my doctrine) is what God thinks.
Conclusion? It only matters what I think. That’s about as deep as the logic goes here.

This is confusing and unbiblical. What God thinks is written in His Word. Disregarding God's Word is disregarding what God thinks. I am not sure why you cannot see this.

RickReads · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
You believe that quote from @Saint Steven denies that the Bible is Gods word or God breathed? I mean, I know lots of Christians who believe both that the Bible is inspired by God as He draws along men, even using their perspective.

Is there anything more specific to argue your point?

I have the impression Steve considers the Bible to be fiction (i.e. he doesn`t believe in the flood.)

Fervent · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
You believe that quote from @Saint Steven denies that the Bible is Gods word or God breathed? I mean, I know lots of Christians who believe both that the Bible is inspired by God as He draws along men, even using their perspective.

Is there anymore more specific to argue your point?

That alone seems sufficient to claim he is demeaning it to a lower level than the word of God, though there were other posts that contributed disputing the flood and other judgments of God and decrying taking the Bible literally(which from the conversation appears to mean literally not simply literalistically.) As I said, I wasn't meaning to call him out specifically nor trying to sway anyone's opinion on him. His posts prompted my thinking, but did not establish my position.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Right, tribal. Defend the camp at all cost. Thinking has nothing to do with it.
And unfortunately it boils down to a form of idolatry. We shouldn't be worshiping doctrines or a book.

God has always had people all through time and will continue to defend his Words until the second coming. Just the same as the devil has His people that seek to silence the Word of God. Idolatry according to the scriptures is worshiping anything that leads to unbelief in God's Word and sin. Therefore it is not idolatry to believe and follow Gods' Word. It is how we love God and our fellow man *John 14:15; John 15:10; Exodus 20:6. Universalism leads people away from God and His Word repeating the same lies told by Eve in Eden in Genesis 3:4-5 which leads away from God to unbelief and sin.

Cormack · Jul 12, 2021

Fervent said:
As I said, I wasn't meaning to call him out specifically nor trying to sway anyone's opinion on him.

I wouldn’t want to call out savage Steve either. Your point is less about what we believe the Bible teaches (proper interpretation of specifics like eternal conscious torment vs universalism) and more about what the Bible is (poetry, literal, prophetic etc.)

The thing is if someone wants to argue that the Bible is pure fiction, that’s different from if Steve (or anybody) wanted to argue that certain parts of the Bible are allegorical.

For example you wouldn’t part ways and deny someone their Christian faith if they thought that the Sampson story or the parable of the rich man and Lazarus were non historic illustrative cautionary tales, would you?

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
Isn’t “the most probable understanding of what is written” also a matter of opinion? Since many people don’t have your view of what the most “probable understanding” is.

Interpretations and opinions are from the many that are called and not chosen in the Spirit. The bible is not a book it is the Word of God and cannot be understood unless God's spirit is our guide and teacher.

Clare73 · Jul 12, 2021

RickReads said:
I have the impression
Steve considers the Bible to be fiction (i.e. he doesn`t believe in the flood.)

Jesus did (Matthew 24:37-39).

Cormack · Jul 12, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Disregarding God's Word is disregarding what God thinks.

What if a man simply disregards what you think? What if he says hey, those are very nice verses, you’re wrong though, literally everything you believe in theologically is wrong. You have 3 choices there.

Is that denying God?

Is that denying just you?

Or is that denying both you and God?

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

MMXX said:
Considering the topic of this thread, the main point of focus should be that Jesus said unbelievers will enter the kingdom of God, after the believers. There are other verses in the NT which say the same thing.

Jesus said no such thing (scripture context you left out here). You put Jesus in contradiction with Jesus and the rest of the bible...

John 3:36 [36], He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Mark 16:16 He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned.

John 3:15 That whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

Cormack said:
Since all of your reasons presuppose Universalism to be false from the outset, @LoveGodsWord, you haven’t actually shared any reasons to “prefer it if universalism were true” or not.

You aren’t willing to presuppose the mere possibility that your view of the Bible is wrong, then go from there. Your kinds of message just aren’t an example of how hypotheticals function.

Rather you’ve written just another message about why you disbelieve in universalism, which isn’t the purpose of the topic.

I really do think you’d be more comfortable arguing in your less populated topic about whose view is the most rightest and most biblical view that ever existed.

That’s not this topic and you’ve had that information for over three weeks now.

Why would one choose to believe the lies of Genesis 3:4-5 over God's Word? Universalism is the same lie told to Eve in the garden of Eden re-marketed under a different name.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 12, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Thinking seems to not be allowed in Christian culture. The knee-jerk reaction, if it seems outside of the box, is to demand chapter and verse. And then quickly becomes Bible versus Bible. Who wins?

That is because only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it according to the scriptures (Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29). Anything else that leads us away from God and His Word can lead us away from God and the faith. We are told to test all things through the scriptures. One needs to find a way to ignore the scriptures to believe in the false teachings of Universalism.

Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

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