Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[sawdust]

Where was Jesus for the three days before his resurrection from the dead?

I can only wonder how you will weave that into your narrative.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can only wonder how you will weave that into your narrative.

It was in response to this post from you. Do you really have no idea where I am going with this? Are you familiar with the Harrowing of Hell? (as it is called in Orthodoxy)

sawdust said: ↑
You forget that salvation is in Christ. If any man be in Christ ... maybe they are or maybe they're not. Those who reject Christ will never know salvation, the scriptures make that quite clear.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Where was Jesus for the three days before his resurrection from the dead?

 

[sawdust]

It was in response to this post from you. Do you really have no idea where I am going with this? Are you familiar with the Harrowing of Hell? (as it is called in Orthodoxy)

sawdust said: ↑
You forget that salvation is in Christ. If any man be in Christ ... maybe they are or maybe they're not. Those who reject Christ will never know salvation, the scriptures make that quite clear.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Where was Jesus for the three days before his resurrection from the dead?

I don't read minds and I try not to make assumptions about another person's theology. If we have to play 20 questions, I'm not interested thanks.

 

[ozso]

I don't read minds and I try not to make assumptions about another person's theology. If we have to play 20 questions, I'm not interested thanks.

The good news is there's no need to wonder or assume or play 20 questions etc. The Harrowing of Hell is original Orthodox Christian theology. There are many ancient depictions of Christ rescuing everyone from hell during the time between His Crucifixion and Resurrection. It's a major theme in the celebration of Easter in Orthodoxy.

In this depiction the gates of hell are broken and Jesus is pulling out Adam and Eve first. Below His feet are all the broken chains and locks of hell and death/hades/satan is hogtied and gagged.

 

[sawdust]

The good news is there's no need to wonder or assume or play 20 questions etc. The Harrowing of Hell is original Orthodox Christian theology. There are many ancient depictions of Christ rescuing everyone from hell during the time between His Crucifixion and Resurrection. It's a major theme in the celebration of Easter in Orthodoxy.

In this depiction the gates of hell are broken and Jesus is pulling out Adam and Eve first. Below His feet are all the broken chains and locks of hell and death/hades/satan is hogtied and gagged.

Thanks but that still has nothing to do with unbelievers so I don't see why anyone would use it as some form of justification for those who hate God.

 

[ozso]

Thanks but that still has nothing to do with unbelievers so I don't see why anyone would use it as some form of justification for those who hate God.

Many who have come to God started out hating Him. Like Nicky Cruz for example. And Paul who started out as an enemy of Christ. God went after them and brought them into His kingdom.

 

[sawdust]

Many who have come to God started out hating Him. Like Nicky Cruz for example. And Paul who started out as an enemy of Christ. God went after them and brought them into His kingdom.

Yes but we are not talking about people who are still alive. We are talking about those who are awaiting judgement. Dead people have no works to judge. As Jesus said in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, "they have Moses and the prophets". Either one believes in this life or they don't.

If God makes people believe then we have no true freedom and having our own volition is pointless. It is naive to think everyone is going to respond positively to God.

 

[ozso]

Yes but we are not talking about people who are still alive. We are talking about those who are awaiting judgement. Dead people have no works to judge. As Jesus said in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, "they have Moses and the prophets". Either one believes in this life or they don't.

If God makes people believe then we have no true freedom and having our own volition is pointless. It is naive to think everyone is going to respond positively to God.

Scripture makes it clear that eventually everyone will not only believe but will bow down and confess the truth.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:10-11

Revelation tells us that in the end there will be the Kingdom of Heaven and those who dwell outside of it. The thing is though, the gates of the Kingdom will always remain open. They are never shut to keep anyone on the outside from entering, or to keep us from going out to them. I think that plus scripture and ancient tradition talking about Jesus descending into hell to put it out of business, gives us room to ponder hope for humanity, even after earthly death.

I'm not saying I think God will force everyone to enter His Kingdom. But it seems to me that scripture is indicating everyone will be given the opportunity in the age to come.

 

[Saint Steven]

I don't read minds and I try not to make assumptions about another person's theology. If we have to play 20 questions, I'm not interested thanks.

It was only one question.
If you want to skip to the conclusion here it is. But you will reject it because we didn't work through it.

There is salvation in the afterlife. It has already happened once, it can happen again. Got it?

 

[grasping the after wind]

I think we can determine where you really stand on this with one question:

Do you believe Sin will be eradicated from existence some day?

Or do you believe Sin will exist forever?

I think you can determine where I stand by what I have posted. If you think I am being deceptive in what I post, then you certainly would consider that whatever I answered to your question was also deception.

 

[sawdust]

I'm not saying I think God will force everyone to enter His Kingdom. But it seems to me that scripture is indicating everyone will be given the opportunity in the age to come.

Everyone has the opportunity right now.

Jn.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have life everlasting.

 

[sawdust]

It was only one question.
If you want to skip to the conclusion here it is. But you will reject it because we didn't work through it.

There is salvation in the afterlife. It has already happened once, it can happen again. Got it?

It's how 20 questions start, with one.

They were not saved in the afterlife, they were saved in their lifetime because they believed and it was credited as righteousness to them. That is why they were on the Paradise side of the chasm and not the Torment side. There is no salvation after death only judgement for all of us.

Heb.9:27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

ps. I reject your conclusion because it isn't true not because we didn't "work" through it.

 

[sawdust]

Scripture makes it clear that eventually everyone will not only believe but will bow down and confess the truth.

Scripture does not make it clear everyone will believe, quite the opposite. It does make it clear everyone will confess. They are not the same thing.

 

[Saint Steven]

They were not saved in the afterlife, they were saved in their lifetime because they believed and it was credited as righteousness to them. That is why they were on the Paradise side of the chasm and not the Torment side. There is no salvation after death only judgement for all of us.

Those who were disobedient long ago in the days of Noah? (1 Peter 3:20) You say they were saved before death? Not likely.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

 

[Clare73]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

No.

I'm in no position to pit my wisdom against the divine wisdom.

 

[Saint Steven]

Everyone has the opportunity right now.

Jn.3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish but have life everlasting.

"... all will be made alive. But each in turn..."


1 Corinthians 15:21-24 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[Saint Steven]

Scripture does not make it clear everyone will believe, quite the opposite. It does make it clear everyone will confess. They are not the same thing.

Here's the Strong's Greek definition.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Clare73]

"... all will be made alive. But each in turn..."
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Those in hell are not in Christ.

The whole theology of universalism is built on human reasoning overriding Scripture.

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

 

[sawdust]

Those who were disobedient long ago in the days of Noah? (1 Peter 3:20) You say they were saved before death? Not likely.

No I didn't say that at all. If you go back and read the posts, you made a generic statement that there is salvation in the afterlife after referring to the Harrowing of Hell story. Another poster put up a picture depicting Christ pulling out Adam and Eve. As far as I know, that doctrine says Christ only redeems the righteous from Hell not everyone. I was referring to those who were saved because they believed in the Lord during their lifetime yet had to wait in Sheol until Christ finished His mission here on earth.

Christ did not save those who perished in the flood, He proclaimed His victory and revealed to them they had backed the wrong god. 1Pet.3:18-20

Yes, when He ascended He took with Him those who had been held captive to death. These are the ones, from "Adam to John the Baptist" waiting in Sheol, who believed on the Lord during their life. Eph.4:8-10

So what was the reason the gospel was preached to the dead? Go back a few verses. It was so the separation between the life of debauchery that leads to death and the life of godliness that leads to life could be plainly seen even by human standards and they can be judged, not saved. 1Pet.4:6

What is the reason Christ died and returned to life? Again, look at the preceding verses. It is regarding living and dying to the Lord. Rom.14:9

"... all will be made alive. But each in turn..."

You forgot to bold "all who belong to Him."

1Cor.15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do you see any acknowledgment in there of Him being Saviour? Let me show you some others who acknowledged Jesus is Lord and what Jesus had to say about them.

Matt.7:21-23 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

There is no redemption for evil only eternal separation.

 

[ozso]

Those in hell are not in Christ.

The whole theology of universalism is built on human reasoning overriding Scripture.

Isn't all theology and doctrine a product of human reasoning?