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Not sure what you are asking. Please clarify. Thanks.Does it? So a hundred, thousand, million years of torture allows one to make a choice freely?
Somewhere in here we have do admit that those who recognize that God is not only loving but just as well. That's a difficult point to arrive at in debates like this one, but somewhere or other it has to be acknowledged.
I'm not sure if that's so. It probably could be argued that something short of an eternity of conscious suffering is just, but if the idea is that there cannot be any hell at all or else that there is one but after awhile everyone who has been relegated to that realm simply is released to join the other souls in heaven, having "done his time," well, both of those make God unjust, and I have heard both advocated.I agree, God is just but this is not synonymous with an eternal hell - actually the existence of such a place would mean that God wasn't just.
Not sure what you are asking. Please clarify. Thanks.
Saint Steven said: ↑
Even Universalism still requires a choice. As I understand it.
I'm not sure if that's so. It probably could be argued that something short of an eternity of conscious suffering is just, but if the idea is that there cannot be any hell at all or else that there is one but after awhile everyone who has been relegated to that realm simply is released to join the other souls in heaven, having "done his time," well, both of those make God unjust, and I have heard both advocated.
Would it be preferable if some get to heaven or all get to heaven? This is not a difficult question to answer.So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?
A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.
We do we presume that God not only puts a soul into hell but then "continues to knock on the door" hoping for some certain response? That doesn't seem to describe a just God so much as it suggests a being who is torturing someone until he says what the tormenter wants to hear. How can we make sense of that kind of god?The solution to this riddle, to me anyway, is that hell is a realm where we are absent from God but He continues to knock on the door - we could be on there forever but that would only be because we continually refuse to open it.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Kind of like when you got saved. (remember) - lolMaybe I have misunderstood other posts you have made but I thought you believe those who reject Christ in this life still go into (and spend a certain amount of time) in the Lake of Fire. Do you think the LoF is not going to hurt ... a lot? The scriptures certainly don't describe it as a pleasant place to be. Assuming that is the case, any choice that is made would be a choice made under duress. How can that be a free choice?
This is why I say is makes a mockery of freedom and volition irrelevant.
We do we presume that God not only puts a soul into hell but then "continues to knock on the door" hoping for some certain response? That doesn't seem to describe a just God so much as it suggests a being who is torturing someone until he says what the tormenter wants to hear. How can we make sense of that kind of god?
I know, but that doesn't seem to change anything.Well, the knocking is obviously a metaphor for God trying to communicate with the tormented soul.
But wait. No matter what wording is used, it makes hell's pains be designed to elicit repentance from the damned person. How else can that be seen other than as a device to leverage a confession...and that doesn't seem to me to make God be just.I think we can trust God to know what form of communication would be most effective for that individual so it wouldn't be fair to describe Him as torturing the person.
As to whether that 'knocking' gets through or not would of course depend on how the person responds - he may have to. acknowledge a lot of cruel acts or inordinate pride for example to be able to hear God's loving voice.
But wait. No matter what wording is used, it makes hell's pains be designed to elicit repentance from the damned person. How else can that be seen other than as a device to leverage a confession...and that doesn't seem to me to make God be just.
There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Kind of like when you got saved. (remember) - lol
Better to pluck an eye out or lose a hand... (a common literary exaggeration)
Jesus said...
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
The prophet said...
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
To put it in Earthly terms that both of us know is not ideal, this is our start--and in a fallen world--in which we find our destiny (if everything goes as it should); but in the afterlife, that's where God's people are united to him while those who rejected God in the life we are now living are rejected.Why would that be unjust. You presumably believe that everyone on earth has to go through some form of repentance to get into heaven and that this is a demand of God. Why is it just if this process occurs on earth but unjust if it occurs in hell?
Where did you get the idea that the decision is under duress?Apart from the above though, I fail to see how making a decision under duress should be considered right or just?
Where did you get the idea that the decision is under duress?
So you think the LOF is torture intended to extract a confession?They're in the Lake of Fire. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth because it is painful. What are you going to do? You'll say anything to end the pain.
So the reason your giving for bad people in this world is, because God has not undoubtedly revealed Himself to people, in other words God’s fault?As for your questions, who can say?
I just think that any (most) humans that meet God for the first time in the afterlife would love, rather than hate, him.
This is based on a God who is restoring all of creation. Not the angry volcano god caricature that some believe in.
Saint Steven said: ↑
I mean meeting God in the afterlife where there is no room to doubt who it is.
Saint Steven said: ↑
Anyone that doesn't love God hasn't met him yet. End of story.
Right, that's exactly what I said. - lolSo the reason your giving for bad people in this world is, because God has not undoubtedly revealed Himself to people, in other words God’s fault?
So you think the LOF is torture intended to extract a confession?
This might help.
Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.
Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).
Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)
All we two have been doing is debating 'for how long' and what about this makes God either just or unjust. So it may be just of him to reject or punish those who did evil in this life, were unrepentant about it, and did not commit to the Savior.
HOWEVER, for God to then torture them until they decide to accept him just doesn't seem the way a 'just' god would operate. If it were being done by a human in wartime, for example, none of us would call that scenario fair or honest.
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