Would you be a Christian if there was no afterlife?

[Dkh587]

What about the other 27 passages about the realm of the dead? Even Solomon said the realm of the dead is "a place" we are going. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) And David said he would not be abandoned there. (Acts 2:25-28) Why worry about being abandoned if there is no consciousness of it? Or if death was non-existence?

Do you also agree with Solomon about this? (see bold)
I don't recommend basing your doctrine on poetry.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.

Aren’t you basing doctrine off “poetry” by quoting Solomon’s “poetry” and using it to support your view? Just saying...

I agree with Solomon - I’m not sure what translation you are quoting (it would be helpful to let us know what it is that you are quoting by using the initials of the translation

Ecclesiastes 9:6 YLT
Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

Sounds to me like Solomon is saying they have no more portion in this current age that we live in.

Question: if Sheol is a holding cell where conscious disembodied spirits go, why does David think you can’t remember or thank God when you’re there? Surely David would be able to remember God and thank him while he is there, awake and conscious, right?

 

[Uriah123]

I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

As you probably agree, pure Christianity has elements of Daoism (the oldest book in the Bible). As you probably agree the after life is an extension of God/Jesus_Christ. God does not change and Haim Shore says the Earth/Universe is 13-18 billion years old (KJV/New_Arabic_Version). In many ways Jesus_Christ/God is a function of human history. Jesus Christ shows God's perfect nature and the rest of us Men/Women are a function of the fact that we can't turn a profit. Can angels/mortal_gods turn a profit? Not sure it matters. Angels/mortal_gods must do what they are told or eventually they will be thrown into hell. Human bodies hold pain and thats why Jesus Christ created us. Our sole purpose is to process emotion and mathematics is a neccesary evil (Daniel ch. 12 KJV). Have you heard of my friend's 10 dimensional linked list relationship finder (Isaiah chapter 54 KJV)?

 

[Uriah123]

I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

My guess is the 7 churches in Turkey can collectively turn a profit. 2 of those churches (2 lampstands/witnesses) will produce the most of the profit. Those 2 Churches are probably mostly but not completely of Smyrna/Philadelphia. In the last days individuals will swap back and forth between the 7 churches. I suppose Moses is of Philadelphia because he was rich and Elijah or the other guy is from Smyrna. I could have that backwards. I believe there will be many Moses and Elijahs or forms of them. I don't believe transfering emotion is the same as turning a rock into water. McDonalds workers transfer emotion all day long so if a McDonalds worker claimed to transfer emotion as a success he wouldn't be guilty of what Moses did with the rock and water. I was going to post a forum topic but i was told not too. I suppose and i believe i'm correct that this was the correct method.

 

[Saint Steven]

Aren’t you basing doctrine off “poetry” by quoting Solomon’s “poetry” and using it to support your view? Just saying...

I agree with Solomon - I’m not sure what translation you are quoting (it would be helpful to let us know what it is that you are quoting by using the initials of the translation

Ecclesiastes 9:6 YLT
Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun.

Sounds to me like Solomon is saying they have no more portion in this current age that we live in.

Question: if Sheol is a holding cell where conscious disembodied spirits go, why does David think you can’t remember or thank God when you’re there? Surely David would be able to remember God and thank him while he is there, awake and conscious, right?

NIV unless otherwise specified.

Was Jesus misleading us with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
How is it that the Rich Man can have a discussion with Abraham?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

As you probably agree, pure Christianity has elements of Daoism (the oldest book in the Bible). As you probably agree the after life is an extension of God/Jesus_Christ. God does not change and Haim Shore says the Earth/Universe is 13-18 billion years old (KJV/New_Arabic_Version). In many ways Jesus_Christ/God is a function of human history. Jesus Christ shows God's perfect nature and the rest of us Men/Women are a function of the fact that we can't turn a profit. Can angels/mortal_gods turn a profit? Not sure it matters. Angels/mortal_gods must do what they are told or eventually they will be thrown into hell. Human bodies hold pain and thats why Jesus Christ created us. Our sole purpose is to process emotion and mathematics is a neccesary evil (Daniel ch. 12 KJV). Have you heard of my friend's 10 dimensional linked list relationship finder (Isaiah chapter 54 KJV)?

Hm, checked it out, sorry but God's earth according to Bible and true science is still flat, motionless and enclosed, probably no bigger that 5,000 km from pole to edge or roof and no older than around 6,000 years.

As for purpose, God saves everything and everyone. Gave His Word and sealed the deal at Calvary. Hence the 'glory of God'. That's the point, His-story. So let's repent, be reconciled to God, or risk a hell of a time changing our willful ways later.

 

[section9+1]

My apologies. I thought you were interested in what the Bible says about the subject. If that's a snooze fest, I probably can't help you.

Do you have any loved ones that will be incinerated in the afterlife?

I'm sure you can't because you have nothing to help with.

 

[Dkh587]

NIV unless otherwise specified.

Was Jesus misleading us with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
How is it that the Rich Man can have a discussion with Abraham?

I don’t think he is misleading us, considering that elsewhere, Christ taught that the dead are actually dead, and not disembodied spirits in a holding cell underground. It’s not a parable to teach what happens when you die. Who was he talking to? Were they familiar with a story like this? Is this story/parable in line with all of his other teachings?

It is obviously not literal, as a human body has fingers, a tongue, and a brain, and eyes... if you are a disembodied spirit/soul, you no longer have fingers to touch and dip in water, a tongue to put water on, and a brain to think, and a mouth to talk, nor eyes to lift up and see around you. Those are human body parts. That would indicate there is a different understanding to it aside from the commonly held view of it being a teaching on the afterlife.

We must remember that King David was a prophet - Acts 2:30 so his teachings on death hold weight, and fit in to the correct understanding of what happens when we die.

David & Christ are not opposed in their teachings about what happens when you die. God’s true prophets do not contradict each other.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing

 

[Psalm 27]

I decided to reword this.

The Old Testament has very little to say about what happens in the afterlife. Yet throughout the OT many worshipped and served God, even to the point of execution. So hypothetically speaking if heaven and hell were put aside, would you still follow Jesus?

Answers could be something like "no way, I'm just in this because I don't want to fry" or "yes I would continue to follow Jesus no matter what" to "as long as the church serves coffee and doughnuts, I'm in"

Great question....well, we know there definitely is an afterlife.
1. Heaven where Jesus came from, and went to. Where believers will ‘be like the angels in heaven’ or..
2. hell ‘where the worm never dies’ and ‘there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’.
IF they didn’t exist, I think that people would still try to live an ethical life. Many unbelievers do anyway

 

[Saint Steven]

I don’t think he is misleading us, considering that elsewhere, Christ taught that the dead are actually dead...

Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[Saint Steven]

It is obviously not literal, as a human body has fingers, a tongue, and a brain, and eyes... if you are a disembodied spirit/soul, you no longer have fingers to touch and dip in water, a tongue to put water on, and a brain to think, and a mouth to talk, nor eyes to lift up and see around you. Those are human body parts. That would indicate there is a different understanding to it aside from the commonly held view of it being a teaching on the afterlife.

Wrong again. IMHO

1 Corinthians 15:52-54
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

Matthew 5:29-31
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

 

[Dkh587]

Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

Abraham is dead - Genesis 25:8

He has not risen from the dead yet. The resurrection is on the last day of our current age. The Messiah was discussing the resurrection.

John 11:23-26 NIV
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 

[Saint Steven]

Abraham is dead - Genesis 25:8

He has not risen from the dead yet. The resurrection is on the last day of our current age. The Messiah was discussing the resurrection.

John 11:23-26 NIV
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

In reference to Abraham, how did Jesus qualify his claim that to God "all are alive"? (scripture below)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[Ceallaigh]

Great question....well, we know there definitely is an afterlife.
1. Heaven where Jesus came from, and went to. Where believers will ‘be like the angels in heaven’ or..
2. hell ‘where the worm never dies’ and ‘there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth’.
IF they didn’t exist, I think that people would still try to live an ethical life. Many unbelievers do anyway

You're right many unbelievers do live an ethical life. So there must be more to being a disciple of Christ than that.

 

[Psalm 27]

You're right many unbelievers do live an ethical life. So there must be more to being a disciple of Christ than that.

Agreed, but what?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Agreed, but what?

Accepting Bible truth, for a start. Cases in point:
1. God's earth is flat, motionless and enclosed.
2. God will save and restore all creation.

Now why do these basic principles, the first an earthly thing, the second a heavenly thing, cause ppl so much consternation? They are both so indisputably Biblical and reasonable, but they appall the modern worldly mind. A stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek.

 

[Dkh587]

In reference to Abraham, how did Jesus qualify his claim that to God "all are alive"? (scripture below)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

He’s quoting Moses to show the Saducees that the dead will be raised in the resurrection.

the discussion is not about being conscious after death.

 

[Sketcher]

Paul addressed this in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. If there's no afterlife, then Christianity is a lie and definitely not worth it. If I didn't believe in any kind of afterlife and if I somehow knew that for a fact and that was the basis for what my religious or philosophical preference was going to be, I wouldn't be Christian. I would be something else. I don't know what, but I would be something else.

 

[Saint Steven]

He’s quoting Moses to show the Saducees that the dead will be raised in the resurrection.

the discussion is not about being conscious after death.

But his concluding statement is that to God "all are alive." Here's another one.

John 11:24-27
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Saint Steven said: ↑
In reference to Abraham, how did Jesus qualify his claim that to God "all are alive"? (scripture below)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul addressed this in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. If there's no afterlife, then Christianity is a lie and definitely not worth it. If I didn't believe in any kind of afterlife and if I somehow knew that for a fact and that was the basis for what my religious or philosophical preference was going to be, I wouldn't be Christian. I would be something else. I don't know what, but I would be something else.

Why would you be something else besides Christian if there was no afterlife? Is Christianity really of no value to you in the here and now?

 

[Dkh587]

But his concluding statement is that to God "all are alive." Here's another one.

John 11:24-27
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
27 “Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

Saint Steven said: ↑
In reference to Abraham, how did Jesus qualify his claim that to God "all are alive"? (scripture below)

Saint Steven said: ↑
Nope.

Luke 20:37-39
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”
39 Some of the teachers of the law responded, “Well said, teacher!”

That is his concluding statement regarding the resurrection. He’s not saying that nobody is dead. Jesus died, and God raised him from the dead. That should be a central part to your belief.

John 11:11-14 NIV

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.”

Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

Acts of the Apostles 2:29 NIV

"Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day.

Acts of the Apostles 2:34-35 NIV

For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

“Yahweh said to my Lord: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.

nobody in the New Testament taught that nobody is dead.