Would Jesus be happy with todays church/Leaders/pope?

[Katmando]

This is a really good article on the subject of church leadership.
http://www.lifestream.org/LSBL.dec02.html

Some Key points from the article

"our perception of leadership is so imbedded in managing or controlling institutions, that we cannot recognize it without titles and positions. Jesus said leadership in his kingdom would not need either and would serve an entirely different function than it does in the world. Unfortunately we’ve allowed ourselves to be squeezed into the world’s mold on this one."

"Today people qualify for leadership based on their university degrees, eloquence, Biblical knowledge or their ability to draw a crowd, manage a vision or manipulate people to help them achieve their goals. If they draw a salary from a religious institution or hold a title we believe them to be leaders even if their lives don’t reflect his life."

"Those who seek credibility in their degrees, their prowess with the original languages of Scripture, or some kind of ‘extra’ anointing not available to other believers, demonstrates by doing so how little of God’s nature they truly understand. Whatever elevates you above others destroys the value of anything God wants to share through you."

"Jesus didn’t view leadership as the power to command, but the passion to serve people as they sort out what it means to live as God’s children? In the last decade my understanding of leadership has changed completely. I used to see it in terms of power—thinking leadership was defined by influence, institutional power or the value of their giftedness."

"With that instruction, why do we have so many people today who insist on being shepherds? That’s not what I Peter 5 is about. Peter tells those called as elders to lead like Jesus did, not by compulsion, not for money, nor to lord over the flock, but simply by being an example of Christ’s life to others."

"Mostly well-intentioned men and women get into ‘the ministry’ for all the right reasons and then stay for all the wrong ones. The New Testament recognizes leadership by the evidence of a transformed life that lives in vital, daily, dynamic, relational connection with the head. People could tell they had been with Jesus. It didn’t matter what gifts they possessed or lacked, only that their character had been transformed to such an extent that they began to treat others the way Jesus would—with the same mix of truth and tenderness.

That’s why it so important that every believer be thoroughly acquainted with the Jesus of the Bible, because the only way we can recognize Godly leadership among us is when people reflect his glory, his truth and his demeanor in the way they live."

"Those who most effectively function in leadership in this body don’t need titles, salaries or positions of authority. In fact, those things will only distract from God’s calling"

"Why do we think that we need leaders to follow when we have the Leader himself? In John 10 Jesus said he was the only shepherd and those who follow him “shall become one flock with one shepherd.” Why is the body of Christ so weakened and divided today? Because we march to a thousand shepherds, each claiming the mantle of Christ and each leading people to what they think is best"

This article does not say we do not need leadership it just should not look like it does in todays Churches.

John 10
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

You might read it a different way, but it seems that the "hired man" could easily be a pastor who is paid to watch over the sheep. The Lord doesn't want a paid substitute...He shepherds his sheep Himself. "there shall be one flock and one shepherd". Maybe the reason the flock (church) is scattered (or divided) is we've listened too often to the voices of the hired men instead of the voice of the One Shepherd.

Do you agree? Dis-agree?

Should churches be what they are today?

There seems to be a lot of people going to home Churches.

Do the churches of today need some restructuring?

It is always difficult when you try to lump such a large inity like the Churcj into one category. Does you church do things differently?

I would loved to here some input.

 

[klewlis]

I didn't vote because none of the options fit... *some* churches are healthy and loving, and do their best to be what God wants them to be. No church is perfect, but many are trying their best. The same goes for the leadership within the churches. I think that Jesus is pleased with his Bride as a whole... how could he not be, when the Bible indicates what it does about Christ's relationship with his Bride? This doesn't mean that we're perfect, but that we are moving in the right direction. Yes, there are unhealthy and dangerous churches and there are bad leaders, but the whole of Christianity is growing and improving on a daily basis, and lives continue to be changed for Christ.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think the options were overbroad . . . I cannot lump the Pope and all church leaders into one group and make a blanket statement like this about all of them . . .

So, I can't vote . .


Peace in Him!

 

[Katmando]

I think the options were overbroad . . . I cannot lump the Pope and all church leaders into one group and make a blanket statement like this about all of them . . .

So, I can't vote . .


Peace in Him!

I reget putting the poll on now it actually seems to confuse things.

The poll is "What do you think of todays churches?"

And the topic of the OP is "Would Jesus be happy with todays church/Leaders/pope?"

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think there are good churches, and not so good churches . . how can we lump them all together?

Peace in Him!

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

According to Paul we are all lumped in as one:

1 Corinthians 10:15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say.
16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?
17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

The state of the church today is in dire need of repair. The rifts between denominations are horrible and some call tehmselves Christians and look down on others because they worship differently, dress differently, emphasise different doctrine, etc, ad nauseum. We all need to recognize the full body of Christ and take that into account when we talk to each other and more importantly the world. One of the first problems are the claims to "the one true church", this is not a slam at the RCC as there are plenty of Protestant denominations that make this claim as well. This claim in and of itself creates a rift that is near impossible to bridge. Until we all realize that his grace is sufficient for all things, including getting past our doctrinal differences we will never see unity in the church, and this is a sad thing.

 

[israelthebride]

I read YH'SHWH'S WORD/LAW (Genesis to Revelation)
with the "accusing finger" pointed at myself.

I will change the world as soon as I get this "log" out of my eye.
_______

Order of LIFE submitted to YH'SHWH:

1. YH'SHWH - I AM HIS WITNESS

2. MY WIFE - SHE is MY WITNESS

3. MY CHILDREN - THEY are the PRODUCT of OUR (MY WIFE and ME) WITNESS

4. HIS PEOPLE / MY MINISTRY - They must see the WITNESS in MY FAMILY.

No other order will work.

This changes the "world" around OUR WITNESS / OUR MINISTRY area.

LOVE, RICOEL

 

[Katmando]

I think there are good churches, and not so good churches . . how can we lump them all together?

Peace in Him!

Ok forget about the poll.

Lets discuss the OP.

What does the good churches look like? What is there structure?

Thank you <><

 

[Katmando]

The state of the church today is in dire need of repair. The rifts between denominations are horrible and some call tehmselves Christians and look down on others because they worship differently, dress differently, emphasise different doctrine, etc, ad nauseum. We all need to recognize the full body of Christ and take that into account when we talk to each other and more importantly the world. One of the first problems are the claims to "the one true church", this is not a slam at the RCC as there are plenty of Protestant denominations that make this claim as well. This claim in and of itself creates a rift that is near impossible to bridge. Until we all realize that his grace is sufficient for all things, including getting past our doctrinal differences we will never see unity in the church, and this is a sad thing.

I agree. The one true Church is the body of believers. They could be spread out though all denominations including the catholic Church.

 

[marc]

I agree. The one true Church is the body of believers. They could be spread out though all denominations including the catholic Church.

I try to describe it this way when someone asks me. If you want fellowship with the church(the one you described hear) you can find it within almost any church building. You have to find the "church" within the "church". The ones who are "being the church" you will know them. Anyone else I consider myself a witness to them.
If you walk into any church anywhere you should be able to find at least one believer. Sometime you will find 1,000 believers, but the "denominational" name doesn't determine this.

Take Nicodemous for example, a believer/seeker amongst the pharisees.

I believe that the closer you are to Jesus the less denominational you will become. Like I said you will find these people within the boundries of all denominations, but they are not necessarily denominational themselves.

Jesus knows who His church is. The others He will simply say "depart from Me I never knew you". It's not are job to identify these, we are just to serve Him. He might call you into a "lost" church to share love with them. I know some sisters that do this at their particular catholic church. They are the only few believers in the whole congregation, but they stay so they can love them and have home bible studies with them. It takes a lot of spiritual maturity to do this.

As far as the problems with denominations. Well, let man get his hands on anything and he will control it regulate it and dominate it until it dies. We are all subject to this and must be on guard. A good example of this is Calvary Chapel, if you know anything about them. They have been led by the Spirit for over 30 years now, but will the next generation quench the Spirit? Hopefully not, but man's reputation for this is high.

Anyway, I agree with the other posts.

Marc

 

[Vollkommen Warrior]

"I agree. The one true Church is the body of believers. They could be spread out though all denominations including the catholic Church."

I agree.