Would it be sin?!?

[Benedicta00]

I am speaking only of the abortificant property. You use it as objection, I refute the abortifican property argument, based on facts.

I understand your position on it.

what is nonfactual about "causes changes to the uterus so pregnancy is less likely to occur?"

This is what the packaging says.

We do not conceive in the uterus.

 

[Uphill Battle]

search the thread and find out if I am the first to bring up ABC apart from Sterilization.

how is my asking others to settle the dispute about logical fallacy a logical fallacy? I did not use it at ALL to prove my point.

I regret I cannot continue this conversation with you. It has lost all sense of reason, charity, and good humour. Instead, we find constant misplaced allegations, Irrational posts, and displaced smug selfsatisfaction, as if by merely throwing out a logical fallacies name, you have proven it's existance.

I am sure you will take me disregarding your following posts in this thread as victory, and proof of your logical prowess. Feel free to do so, I'm sure you would never concider for a split second that you weren't correct in the first place.

 

[Uphill Battle]

not that fact, sister. The fact that you wave the red flag over supposed abortificant properties of BC pills, but ignore the other contraception methods that have nothing to do with it.

i am aware you see the other methods as sin as well.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Nevermind that the sin of Onan was NOT - as the RCC asserts - masturbation, or sterilization.

Absolutely NO evidence whatseover is presented to support your claim . .

In addition you are ignoring facts in evidence that contradict your claim.

Hello?

Hello what? Do you believe I am heard of hearing?

Onan simply refused to do what God commanded - which was to provide his dead brother an heir.

Prove it.

Onan was NOT masturbating. He was having sex with the woman. Onan did NOT sterilize anything. He simply paid a severe penalty for an early with-drawl.

Which sterilized the sex act he was engaging in . .the sex act was created to be fertile . . he made it deliberate unfertile - sterile . .no chance of life being conceived . .

You were saying?

And why do you keep speaking for "all of Christianity"?

I am not. I am merely pointing out what all of chrsitianity believed until the Lambeth decision . .

Why, is it a problem for you for someone to present the historical position of all of christianity?


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

.

Why, is it a problem for you for someone to present the historical position of all of christianity?


.

mostly because you have no evidence to support that claim. No single person can say "All christians believed this." It's impossible.



and for your perusal:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/peopleevents/e_humvit.html

Ignoring the Vatican
Within just two years of Humanae Vitae, almost as many Catholic women used the Pill as non-Catholics. By 1970, two-thirds of all Catholic women and three-quarters of those under 30 were using the Pill and other birth control methods banned by the Church. In 2002, Humanae Vitae still defined the Church's position on birth control, and many observers of the Church believed that it contributed to the erosion of the Vatican's authority during the last decades of the twentieth century.

"All Christians" apparently don't include all of the RCC.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

So it's stupid to sacrifice your life for your baby's life WOW_________________________________

If a woman had cancer and deiced to abort her bay to treat her cancer- would you say that was alright?

No. And, incidentally, I KNEW that this is exactly how you would twist and illogically apply what I said.


I'm saying that it is STUPID to continue getting pregnant when you know it will very likely kill you. That's not heroism, that's STUPID. Leaving little children motherless - when you could simply choose not to - is STUPID.

Furthermore, for a husband to keep getting his wife pregnant, in full knowledge that it will likely kill her, is SELFISH and MORALLY BANKRUPT.



Thank you for taking the bait!

 

[Benedicta00]

show me evidence, from Luther, stating that he was the infallible, only truth bearer.

The bible says no such thing.

There is evidence. Luther himself said after sola scripture was abused that "the peasants" were "better off as papists."

He was not happy with Calvin, the way he did away with the liturgy. he was not happy with the degradation of Mary which is why he defended her. he did not intend sola scripture to mean every one is now their own pope.

I think you need to research him and what you fnd out will shock you.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I see . . it is stupid . . Let's take that to its logical conclusion . .

• The bible tells us that no greater love does a man have than to lay down one's life for another
• This is the greatest expression of love possible from one human being to another.
• She laid down her life for another . .
• CLAIM: That's stupid she laid down her life for another

Conclusion:

• 1) The words of Jesus are stupid for telling us that there is no greater expression of love than to lay down one's life for another.
• 2) She was stupid for giving that greatest expression of love to her child and example of that greatest expression of love to her family and others. . .

Quite telling isn't it?

Jesus' words must not mean much if it is stupid for a mother to give this greatest expression of love to her child.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion . . . . . .

Yes, it is VERY telling - to me - that you would promote the non-Biblical Roman Catholic idea that a woman should keep getting pregnant, die as a result of it, and leave her children without a mother.

That's not just stupid, that's insane.

 

[Benedicta00]

No. And, incidentally, I KNEW that this is exactly how you would twist and illogically apply what I said.


I'm saying that it is STUPID to continue getting pregnant when you know it will very likely kill you. That's not heroism, that's STUPID. Leaving little children motherless - when you could simply choose not to - is STUPID.

Furthermore, for a husband to keep getting his wife pregnant, in full knowledge that it will likely kill her, is SELFISH and MORALLY BANKRUPT.



Thank you for taking the bait!

that's why we use NFP. A morally acceptable way to "control birth."

 

[ParsonJefferson]

This thread is getting unruly and is lacking the charity requisite to be called a Christiam place of interaction. The staff has received numerous complaints out of this thread, and if the sniping and hostilities continue, we will have to close the thread for good. Thank you for your cooperation.

I'd strongly suggest you do CLOSE this thread.

I think it's quite telling to hear sex within marriage referred to as "Marital Sodomy."

That's all that needs to be seen and said to understand the judgmental, unchristian attitude here.

Thanks.

 

[Benedicta00]

condoms are not drugs. Diaphragms are not drugs. Vasectomies are not drugs. Etc....

no but they are immoral.

 

[Benedicta00]

My doctor said birth control pills tell your brain that ovulation has already occured, so your body doesn't ovulate again.

and if that ever fails which it can, and you do convince your body will reject the baby.

 

[Benedicta00]

you shifting the goal posts? YOU pronounced all BC sin, not I.

all abc is.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

that's why we use NFP. A morally acceptable way to "control birth."

Yeah, okay.

Dance the dance all you want. You're practicing Birth Control - just like my wife and I are practicing Birth Control.

The DIFFERENCE is that I'm not condemning you, I'm not judging you, I'm not taking an arrogant condescending attitude toward your Birth Control, and I'm not accusing you of engaging in "Marital Sodomy".

Have as many babies as you want.
Die having a baby if you wish.
Have babies until you're in your 70s if you can.
Feel superior about it, as you obviously do.
Judge and condemn others who don't follow your CHURCH teaching, which you already have done.
Make sick accusations against people.

But leave me out of this insanity. My wife and I are richly blessed with our 3 children. We are finished having children, because I refuse to selfishly imperil her life.


This is the end for me. It is pointless to argue with a pair of angry women who want to sit in judgment where the Bible does not judge.

 

[Benedicta00]

Nevermind that the sin of Onan was NOT - as the RCC asserts - masturbation, or sterilization.

Hello?

Onan simply refused to do what God commanded - which was to provide his dead brother an heir.

Onan was NOT masturbating. He was having sex with the woman. Onan did NOT sterilize anything. He simply paid a severe penalty for an early with-drawl.


And why do you keep speaking for "all of Christianity"?

God wanted a child to be conceived and he had other plans. How many times does God want us to conceive but we have other plans?

It's the same thing. contraception is the same sin.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yeah, okay.

Dance the dance all you want. You're practicing Birth Control - just like my wife and I are practicing Birth Control.

The DIFFERENCE is that I'm not condemning you, I'm not judging you, I'm not taking an arrogant condescending attitude toward your Birth Control, and I'm not accusing you of engaging in "Marital Sodomy".

Have as many babies as you want.
Die having a baby if you wish.
Have babies until you're in your 70s if you can.
Feel superior about it, as you obviously do.
Judge and condemn others who don't follow your CHURCH teaching, which you already have done.
Make sick accusations against people.

But leave me out of this insanity. My wife and I are richly blessed with our 3 children. We are finished having children, because I refuse to selfishly imperil her life.


This is the end for me. It is pointless to argue with a pair of angry women who want to sit in judgment where the Bible does not judge.

but I use a moral means. there in lies the difference. And I am open by not drugging myself up or having myself mutilated so if God were to speak to me, i will be able to hear him.

 

[thereselittleflower]

search the thread and find out if I am the first to bring up ABC apart from Sterilization.

More logical fallacy STRAWMAN . .no one said you were the first . . just arguing against imaginary arguments now . .

how is my asking others to settle the dispute about logical fallacy a logical fallacy? I did not use it at ALL to prove my point.

It doesn't matter what others think . . appealing to what others think is a logical fallacy . . if they think UB didn't, that doesn't prove UBdidn't, just that UB has company in his beliefs.

And another strawman . . who said UB was using it to prove his point? (Though, undoubtably if it was in his favor hr would use it in such a manner.)

I regret I cannot continue this conversation with you. It has lost all sense of reason, charity, and good humour. Instead, we find constant misplaced allegations, Irrational posts, and displaced smug selfsatisfaction, as if by merely throwing out a logical fallacies name, you have proven it's existance.

I am sure you will take me disregarding your following posts in this thread as victory, and proof of your logical prowess. Feel free to do so, I'm sure you would never concider for a split second that you weren't correct in the first place.[/

More logical fallacy . . Appeal to Ridicule

Also Known as: Appeal to Mockery, The Horse Laugh.

Description of Appeal to Ridicule
The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:


X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
Therefore claim C is false.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false. This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2! That's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!"

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html
​

.

 

[Benedicta00]

search the thread and find out if I am the first to bring up ABC apart from Sterilization.

how is my asking others to settle the dispute about logical fallacy a logical fallacy? I did not use it at ALL to prove my point.

I regret I cannot continue this conversation with you. It has lost all sense of reason, charity, and good humour. Instead, we find constant misplaced allegations, Irrational posts, and displaced smug selfsatisfaction, as if by merely throwing out a logical fallacies name, you have proven it's existance.

I am sure you will take me disregarding your following posts in this thread as victory, and proof of your logical prowess. Feel free to do so, I'm sure you would never concider for a split second that you weren't correct in the first place.

I told you it was going to be a fun thread. I said I only want to have to explain the Catholic position once...

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, it is VERY telling - to me - that you would promote the non-Biblical Roman Catholic idea that a woman should keep getting pregnant, die as a result of it, and leave her children without a mother.

That's not just stupid, that's insane.

so if the child as a result grew up and had her own family and those kids found a cure for cancer--- would you still say she was stupid?

From life- anything can come. that's why we have to let God make our choices and we can't do it of we are sterile.

 

[IamAdopted]

Wow.. So how is having a vastectomy or tubal is mutlilating yourself? Not any different than a gall bladder taken out.. Or a cancerous kidney. How is this different that any other operation?