Would it be sin?!?

[Benedicta00]

However, You must remember that no protestant looks to Luther as an infallible organization. Nor did he claim to be.

NO he did and i realize that no one really cares what his message really was. They just point to him as they cry free, free we are free at last... waving their bibles of course.

I don't know, it's kind of like poetic justice that they both share the same name and the latter one ends in "King" and he was Jr.

Martin Luther ..."King." who free us from the barbaric Catholic Church.

The RCC does.

because she is, the bible says so.

 

[thereselittleflower]

What if a person knew they would absolutely die during child-birth? Should that person/couple keep from getting pregnant?

Not if it means that they could enjoy sex while making it sterile.

I know of a woman who gave up her life to have her child. She sacrificed herself for another ..

No greater love than this . . than a man lay down his life for a friend ..

That is sacrificial love.. .

contraception is the opposite . . .


.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

controlling when we get pregnant is not what makes "birth control", contraception. It's the anti baby- anti large family mentality.

for clarification, controlling birth using a moral means is not sinful. Contraception is sinful which is a mentality.

You're trying to dance a semantic dance! This is hilarious!

You are practicing Birth Control! You CANNOT deny that!

And not only do YOU practice birth control, you CONDEMN OTHERS who do the exact same thing YOU do. Birth Control!


And then you justify it by claiming that it's not the contraception that's wrong, it's the mentality? That makes no sense at all.

 

[Uphill Battle]

NO he did and i realize that no one really cares what his message really was. They just point to him as they cry free, free we are free at last... waving their bibles of course.

I don't know, it's kind of like poetic justice that they both share the same name and the latter one ends in "King" and he was Jr.

Martin Luther ..."King." who free us from the barbaric Catholic Church.




because she is, the bible says so.

show me evidence, from Luther, stating that he was the infallible, only truth bearer.

The bible says no such thing.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Not if it means that they could enjoy sex while making it sterile.

I know of a woman who gave up her life to have her child. She sacrificed herself for another ..

No greater love than this . . than a man lay down his life for a friend ..

That is sacrificial love.. .

contraception is the opposite . . .


.

That's not heroism. That's stupid. How many children did she leave without a mother? And what has happened to those children? Why didn't she just NOT get pregnant?


Now before you go off on yet another of your tangents, I'm not promoting abortion. I'm saying that it is STUPID to intentionally get pregnant when you know it could kill you. It is STUPID to claim you're "trusting God" yet make full use of EVERY modern medical advance you can.

 

[Benedicta00]

Yes, I consider fertility and each child a gift from God.
Yes, I consider child birth a miracle.

And yes, let's DO cut the bull - and answer these questions!

1. Why do you uphold the teachings of a Church over the teachings of the Bible?

I don't.

Why do you believe in making false dichotomies? Why are you acting like the non catholics who say our belief are biblical are invisible?

2. Why do you believe SOME forms of birth control - specifically NFP - are okay while others are "sin".

One reason, I have many, but one, because the majority of ABC are abortificants.

3. What makes you think you're in a position to be a judge, when the Bible CLEARLY says both that role belongs to God & Jesus, and that humans are NOT to judge?

I'm not judging. Have I said your damned to hell? No, therefore I have not judged you.

4. And last but not least, WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT BIRTH CONTROL IS A SIN?

Where does the bible say abortifants and making oneself infertile on purpose is a okay thing to do?

Yes indeed, let's cut the bull!

Yes, let's. If you think the gift of a child is a blessing and fertility is a gift- who are you to make yourself sterile?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Let's discuss the topic of Onan's Sin for a moment...

Read Genesis 38 - and read it without the man-made traditions of the RCC heaped on it.

Onan's sin was NOT - as the RCC has WRONGLY asserted - masturbation.

Onan's sin was simply that he refused to fulfill his God-ordained duty to provide the wife of his death brother a child.

This has NOTHING to do with Birth Control. It has NOTHING to do with masturbation. It has EVERYTHING to do with denying his dead brother an heir.

If you would take time to read the scriptural evidences I gave, you would see that this is not true.

It also amazes me that some people today make the claims you did above, yet all of Christianity for 1900 universally understood the sin of Onan to be that of deliberately sterilzing the sexual act . . .

Somehow, all of Christianity (not just Catholicism .. so please stop playing the Catholic card in such a manner - which is nothing more than an attempt to poison the well, a logical fallacy) got it wrong for 1900 years and now some are so enlightened as to understand what all of Chritianity failed to udnerstand all those centuries . .

Never mind that such "enlightenment" came only after secular humanism, rationalism and modernism . . . grave errors that deny God . . . began to make their mark on Protestant theology. . . .


.

 

[Benedicta00]

That's not heroism. That's stupid. How many children did she leave without a mother? And what has happened to those children? Why didn't she just NOT get pregnant?


Now before you go off on yet another of your tangents, I'm not promoting abortion. I'm saying that it is STUPID to intentionally get pregnant when you know it could kill you. It is STUPID to claim you're "trusting God" yet make full use of EVERY modern medical advance you can.

So it's stupid to sacrifice your life for your baby's life WOW_________________________________

If a woman had cancer and deiced to abort her bay to treat her cancer- would you say that was alright?

 

[Uphill Battle]

I don't.


One reason, I have many, but one, because the majority of ABC are abortificants.

Then Condoms should be no different than NFP, and thusly, fine.

the "Majority" of ABC are not abortificants.

SOME pills are, the IUD is. Injections may be as well, never looked in to them.

However,

Diapraghms, Condoms, both Male and Female, Spermicidal Gels, Tubal ligations, NFP, and Vasectomies are non-abortificant. the MAJORITY are NOT abortificant.

 

[Benedicta00]

Now before you go off on yet another of your tangents, I'm not promoting abortion. I'm saying that it is STUPID to intentionally get pregnant when you know it could kill you. It is STUPID to claim you're "trusting God" yet make full use of EVERY modern medical advance you can.

which is why we use NFP. No one has said it's wrong to avoid a dangerous pregnancy- just do not use immorality to do that.

 

[Uphill Battle]

If you would take time to read the scriptural evidences I gave, you would see that this is not true.

It also amazes me that some people today make the claims you did above, yet all of Christianity for 1900 universally understood the sin of Onan to be that of deliberately sterilzing the sexual act . . .

Somehow, all of Christianity (not just Catholicism .. so please stop playing the Catholic card in such a manner - which is nothing more than an attempt to poison the well, a logical fallacy) got it wrong for 1900 years and now some are so enlightened as to understand what all of Chritianity failed to udnerstand all those centuries . .

Never mind that such "enlightenment" came only after secular humanism, rationalism and modernism . . . grave errors that deny God . . . began to make their mark on Protestant theology. . . .


.

logical fallacy, appealling to traditions.

no evidence that assertion is true.

(I've demonstrated that numerous times.)

beyond that Catholisism =/= All Christianity.

 

[Benedicta00]

Then Condoms should be no different than NFP, and thusly, fine.

the "Majority" of ABC are not abortificants.

SOME pills are, the IUD is. Injections may be as well, never looked in to them.

However,

Diapraghms, Condoms, both Male and Female, Spermicidal Gels, Tubal ligations, NFP, and Vasectomies are non-abortificant. the MAJORITY are NOT abortificant.

didn't we cover this yesterday?

Do I need to draw you a picture?

Condoms prevent one spouse from totally giving themselves to the other. The man holds back his fertility from the women during the act ad the woman rejects him and her own fertility.

This is what two being made one is, it's a total self giving, accepting the whole person. Gifts and all.

 

[thereselittleflower]

That's not heroism. That's stupid. How many children did she leave without a mother? And what has happened to those children? Why didn't she just NOT get pregnant?

I see . . it is stupid . . Let's take that to its logical conclusion . .

• The bible tells us that no greater love does a man have than to lay down one's life for another
  
• This is the greatest expression of love possible from one human being to another.
  
• She laid down her life for another . .
  
• CLAIM: That's stupid she laid down her life for another

.

Conclusion:

• 1) The words of Jesus are stupid for telling us that there is no greater expression of love than to lay down one's life for another.
  
• 2) She was stupid for giving that greatest expression of love to her child and example of that greatest expression of love to her family and others. . .

Quite telling isn't it?


Jesus' words must not mean much if it is stupid for a mother to give this greatest expression of love to her child.

Now before you go off on yet another of your tangents, I'm not promoting abortion. I'm saying that it is STUPID to intentionally get pregnant when you know it could kill you. It is STUPID to claim you're "trusting God" yet make full use of EVERY modern medical advance you can.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion . . . . .


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

"the "Majority" of ABC are not abortificants."

that is a lie from the medical community that doesn't want the truth to be known . .


Look it up on DrugDigest . ..


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

didn't we cover this yesterday?

Do I need to draw you a picture?

Condoms prevent one spouse from totally giving themselves to the other. The man holds back his fertility from the women during the act ad the woman rejects him and her own fertility.

This is what two being made one is, it's a total self giving, accepting the whole person. Gifts and all.

I am speaking only of the abortificant property. You use it as objection, I refute the abortifican property argument, based on facts.

I understand your position on it.

 

[ScottBot]

This thread is getting unruly and is lacking the charity requisite to be called a Christiam place of interaction. The staff has received numerous complaints out of this thread, and if the sniping and hostilities continue, we will have to close the thread for good. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Then Condoms should be no different than NFP, and thusly, fine.

I am truly confused on this matter: do you really not understand the difference between Condoms and NFP?

Condoms prevent sperm from entering the woman . . . they sterilize the sexual act and make the couple totally closed to life.

NFP does none of this.

the "Majority" of ABC are not abortificants.

No . .that's not true if one looks at prevalent use ..

SOME pills are, the IUD is. Injections may be as well, never looked in to them.

All hormonal contraceptives are . . all devices which prevent implantation are.

However,

Diapraghms, Condoms, both Male and Female, Spermicidal Gels, Tubal ligations, NFP, and Vasectomies are non-abortificant. the MAJORITY are NOT abortificant.

The majority of those using contraceptives use hormonal contraceptives . . .

And all artifical contraceptives sterilize the sexual act and when used intentionally for that purpose are crimes against God and nature.


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

"the "Majority" of ABC are not abortificants."

that is a lie from the medical community that doesn't want the truth to be known . .


Look it up on DrugDigest . ..


.

condoms are not drugs. Diaphragms are not drugs. Vasectomies are not drugs. Etc....

 

[Uphill Battle]

Do you really not understand the difference between Condoms and NFP?

Condoms prevent sperm from entering the woman . . . they sterilize the sexual act and make the couple totally closed to life.

NFP does none of this.

really? I never knew! Of course I know this. What seems to be glossed over and over and over again is that using NFP is still attempting to limit procreation, hence is a form of birth control.

All hormonal contraceptives are .

false.

all devices which prevent implantation are.

true, if they are ovulating.

The majority of those using contraceptives use hormonal contraceptives . . .

possibly. Are you stating everyone? Or just Christians?

And all artifical contraceptives sterilize the sexual act and when used intentionally for that purpose are crimes against God and nature.

unsubstatiated. Has not been demonstrated that birth control is a crime against God. And if it is, so is NFP. You can't wiggle out of that hypocracy.

 

[ScottBot]

The difference between NFP and the other forms of ARTIFICIAL birth control are that NFP does not create an artificial barrier to procreation.

BTW, ALL of Christianity considered articifical contraception to be a sin until the Lambeth Conference. I would therefore have to contend that artificial contraception is a tradition of men, not of God.