Would it be sin?!?

[Benedicta00]

just want one question answered is NFP okay to be practiced to avoid pregnancy when there is no reason medical or otherwise not to be pregnant?

No it's not okay. It the becomes contraption.

 

[thereselittleflower]

That's' right GOD asked for it. Where does God ever ask for sterilizing the reproductive organs in order to not get preganant?

And how does circumcision act as a contraceptive?


.

 

[Uphill Battle]

We never say the catholic Church is the only Church, just that it is the Church Christ established. We know where the Church is, not where its not.

Now please show me where in the bible it says we can alter a healthy working human body with chemicals and surgeries?

I'll find it, as soon as you can show me the scripture where it says it's ok to believe that Mary was assumed to heaven!

You are playing both sides of the ice! Where does it say to pray to saints (where does it say NOT to....)

Where in the bible are we not to use contraception? (where does it give you permission?!?)

you can't use both types of argument for whatever issue you choose. Stick to one, or the other. It's far more credible.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Well, it disturbs my peace to be told that my church (the Lutheran Church) is not properly a church, but an "ecclesial union" -- and this after the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation worked on the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification; and it disturbs my peace to be told as a Lutheran, I follow a man (and not God) -- but I've learned to live with it.

I certainly do believe in the sanctity of life. That's why I have a living will, a durable power of attorney, and a durable power of attorney for medical decisions so my wishes will be followed at the time of my death.

I think it would have been nice had God cared about the "sanctity of life" of the citizens of Jericho in Joshua 6:20-21:

20 So the people shouted, and the priests blew the trumpets. It happened, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him,and they took the city. 21 They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword.
​

And then there are the collective genocides of Joshua 10:

1 Now it happened when Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard how Joshua had taken Ai, and had utterly destroyed it; as he had don eto Jericho and her king, so he had done to Ai and her king; and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel, and were among them; 2 that they were very afraid, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and allits men were mighty. 3 Therefore Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem sent to Hoham king of Hebron, to Piram king of Jarmuth, to Japhia king of Lachish, and toDebir king of Eglon, saying, 4 “Come up to me, and help me, and let us strike Gibeon; for it has made peace with Joshua and with the children of Israel.” 5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together, and went up, they and all their armies, and encamped against Gibeon, and made war againstit. 6 The men of Gibeon sent to Joshua to the camp to Gilgal, saying, “Don’t abandon your servants! Come up to us quickly, and save us,and help us; for all the kings of the Amorites that dwell in the hill country have gathered together against us.”

7 So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he, and all the people of war with him, and all the mighty men of valor. 8 Yahweh said to Joshua, “Don’t fear them, for I have delivered them into your hands. Not a man of them will stand before you.”

9 Joshua therefore came on them suddenly. He went up from Gilgal all night. 10 Yahweh confused them before Israel, and he killed them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them by the way of the ascentof Beth Horon, and struck them to Azekah and to Makkedah. 11 It happened, as they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth Horon, that Yahweh cast down great stones from the sky on them to Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than who the children of Israel killed with the sword.

12 Then Joshua spoke to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still on Gibeon! You, moon, stop in the valley of Aijalon!”

13 The sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation had avenged themselves of their enemies. Isn’t this written in the book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of the sky, and didn’t hurry to go down about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, that Yahweh listened to the voice of a man; for Yahweh fought for Israel.

15 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to the camp to Gilgal. 16 These five kings fled, and hid themselves in the cave at Makkedah. 17 Joshua was told, saying, “The five kings are found, hidden in the cave at Makkedah.”

18 Joshua said, “Roll large stones to the mouth of the cave, and set men by it to guard them; 19 but don’t stay. Pursue your enemies, and them from the rear. Don’t allow them to enter into their cities; for Yahweh your God has delivered them into your hand.”

20 It happened, when Joshua and the children of Israel had finished killing them with a very great slaughter until they were consumed,and the remnant which remained of them had entered into the fortified cities, 21 that all the people returned to the camp to Joshua at Makkedah in peace. None moved his tongue against any of the children of Israel. 22 Then Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave, and bring those five kings out of the cave to me.”

23 They did so, and brought those five kings out of the cave to him: the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth,the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. 24 It happened, when they brought those kings out to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs ofthe men of war who went with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.”

They came near, and put their feet on their necks.

25 Joshua said to them, “Don’t be afraid, nor be dismayed. Be strong and of good courage, for Yahweh will do this to all your enemies against whom you fight.”

26 Afterward Joshua struck them, put them to death, and hanged them on five trees. They were hanging on the trees until the evening. 27 It happened at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave in which they had hidden themselves, and laid great stones on the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day.

28 Joshua took Makkedah on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with its king. He utterly destroyed them and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining. He did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

29 Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, to Libnah, and fought against Libnah. 30 Yahweh delivered it also, with its king, into the hand of Israel. He struck it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining in it. He did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it. 32 Yahweh delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel. He took it on the second day, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with allthe souls who were in it, according to all that he had done to Libnah. 33 Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, until he had left him none remaining.

34 Joshua passed from Lachish, and all Israel with him, to Eglon; and they encamped against it fought against it. 35 They took it on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword. He utterly destroyed all the souls who were in it that day,according to all that he had done to Lachish.

36 Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, to Hebron; and they fought against it. 37 They took it, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with its king and all its cities, and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but he utterly destroyed it, and all the souls who were in it.

38 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir, and fought against it. 39 He took it, with its king and all its cities. They struck them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining. As he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to its king; as he had done also to Libnah, and to its king. 40 So Joshua struck all the land, the hill country, and the South, and the lowland, and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but he utterly destroyed all that breathed, as Yahweh, the God of Israel, commanded. 41 Joshua struck them from Kadesh Barnea even to Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even to Gibeon. 42 Joshua took all these kings and their land at one time, because Yahweh, the God of Israel, fought for Israel. 43 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to the camp to Gilgal.
​

And regarding the sanctity of life -- I'll bet if we had the opportunity to ask them, the residents of Gilgal, Makkadeh, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron and Debir migh have preferred having their sanctity of life preserved as well -- considering that Joshua killed old men and women, young men and women, and children and babies alike!

Methinks one does not understand what the issue of "sanctity of life" is all about . . .


.

 

[praying]

No it's not okay. It the becomes contraption.

So the only time one can use NFP is when there is a medical reason or grave financial burdens? That is not what i have seen advocated in this thread. I have seen NFP touted as the means to avoid pregnancy in the place of what is viewed as artificial birth control.


and on another note it took me until about page 16 to decipher that ABC meant artificial birth control.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Is there some confusion regarding the word "only" ?





.

I don't know... is there some confusion with the word All? or the word Brother?

 

[Uphill Battle]

And how does circumcision act as a contraceptive?


.

It doesn't. He was showing an example of deliberate modification of the body, to refute that God would never intend us to do so. Nothing more.

 

[praying]

are you a Christian who believes in population control?

Define poulation control? That sounds very 1984ish, if so no, not by government means I am not.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'll find it, as soon as you can show me the scripture where it says it's ok to believe that Mary was assumed to heaven!

You are playing both sides of the ice! Where does it say to pray to saints (where does it say NOT to....)

Where in the bible are we not to use contraception? (where does it give you permission?!?)

you can't use both types of argument for whatever issue you choose. Stick to one, or the other. It's far more credible.

Uphill, I do not have to show you anything from the bible only.

I am not a sola scripturalist, but you however, are.

So therefore YOU, not me, are bound to this rule.

So show me where the bible only says we can rip out our reproductive organs and take cancer causing chemicals that have abortificant potential to control birth?

Show me where God ever said this is okay?

Heck- I'll let you out of your own rule and ask you where any Christian anywhere until the 20th century believe it was okay?

 

[Benedicta00]

Uphill, I do not have to show you anything from the bible only.

I am not a sola scripturalist, but you however, are.

So therefore YOU, not me, are bound to this rule.

So show me where the bible only says we can rip out our reproductive organs and take cancer causing chemicals that have abortificant potential to control birth?

Show me where God ever said this is okay?

Heck- I'll let you out of your own rule and ask you where any Christian anywhere until the 20th century believe it was okay?

and to add- if men are really worrying over their wife's life, then how could they ever allow her to take cancer causing chemicals?

 

[praying]

Is there some confusion regarding the word "only" ?





.

Okay, see it was me I went back and reread and had an ephinany.


So what is the difference if I use a condom for those times I am not ready to conceive and don't use one when I am? Or use chemical birth control (not sterilization)?

 

[Benedicta00]

Define poulation control? That sounds very 1984ish, if so no, not by government means I am not.

I meant the Hillary Clinton definition of it. And 84' was a great year BTW.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I'll find it, as soon as you can show me the scripture where it says it's ok to believe that Mary was assumed to heaven!

And this argument from one who denounces the argument that we be shown where the scripture plainly state that the Holy Spirit is:

• Co-Equal with the Father and the Son
• Co-Eternal with the Father an the son
• Co-Eternally Pre-existing with the Father and the Son

EXAMPLE: from this very thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31500950&postcount=153

Yesterday, 03:57 PM

Uphill Battle
I'm the wretch that song was talking about...
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01:58 PM

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thereselittleflower
Because you want something plainly stated, explict evidence, and that is a DOUBLE STANDAR, a Logical fallacious argument, for you don't hold yourself to that same standard regarding all your beliefs.

Where does the scripture PLAINLY STATE that the Holy Spirit is:
Co-equal with the Father and the Son
Co-eternal with the Fathr and the Son
Co-eternally pre-existing with the Father and the Son

???

It doesn't anywhere . .

So your requriement and argument is logically false ..

If you don't need the above beliefs plainly stated inscripture to validate those beliefs, then neither can you require such a level of evidence to validate ours.​

.

you've used this deflection before. It's no more valid now than it was then!


​

A CLEAR DOUBLE STANDARD if every I saw one!

Such a logically fallacious response on so many levels!

You are playing both sides of the ice! Where does it say to pray to saints (where does it say NOT to....)

From one who is playing both sides of the ice!

Again, more fallacious double standards!

Where in the bible are we not to use contraception? (where does it give you permission?!?)

you can't use both types of argument for whatever issue you choose. Stick to one, or the other. It's far more credible.

One wonders why this one is not doing as he advises instead of engaging in the logical fallacy of double standards?


.

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay, see it was me I went back and reread and had an ephinany.


So what is the difference if I use a condom for those times I am not ready to conceive and don't use one when I am? Or use chemical birth control (not sterilization)?

you are not giving yourself to your spouse. You are putting a barrier between your total self giving.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Uphill, I do not have to show you anything from the bible only.

I am not a sola scripturalist, but you however, are.

So therefore YOU, not me, are bound to this rule.

So show me where the bible only says we can rip out our reproductive organs and take cancer causing chemicals that have abortificant potential to control birth?

Show me where God ever said this is okay?

Heck- I'll let you out of your own rule and ask you where any Christian anywhere until the 20th century believe it was okay?

If you do not need to show anything in the bible, then you have no right to ask for it.

You are twisting the meaning ofo sola scriptura, and then trying to use it as an argument against my belief in the matter.

You are pushing the envelope again on ABC.... seeing as most forms of birth control will not do what you claim they will, such as condoms, diaphragms, etc... your true issue isn't the organs, or the chemicals, it's the BC....

My rule, is to follow the bible. I am not prohibited from using BC, therefore, I see no reason not to. Plain and simple.

 

[praying]

I don't know HIlary's definition of it. Call me a bad democrat.

 

[Benedicta00]

So the only time one can use NFP is when there is a medical reason or grave financial burdens? That is not what i have seen advocated in this thread. I have seen NFP touted as the means to avoid pregnancy in the place of what is viewed as artificial birth control.


and on another note it took me until about page 16 to decipher that ABC meant artificial birth control.

Then you have not been reading closely.

I know I explained this to uphill alone at least 8 times .

 

[Benedicta00]

I don't know HIlary's definition of it. Call me a bad democrat.

That we are to control the world's population through abortion and contraceptive or else we will use up our worlds resources... or something retarded like that.

I swear that women is Margaret Sanger reincarnated.

 

[Uphill Battle]

And this argument from one who denounces the argument that we be shown where the scripture plainly state that the Holy Spirit is:

• Co-Equal with the Father and the Son
• Co-Eternal with the Father an the son
• Co-Eternally Pre-existing with the Father and the Son

A CLEAR DOUBLE STANDARD if every I saw one!

Such a logically fallacious response on so many levels!

You are playing both sides of the ice! Where does it say to pray to saints (where does it say NOT to....)
[/quote]

From one who is playing both sides of the ice!

Again, more fallacious double standards!




One wonders why this one is not doing as he advises instead of engaging in the logical fallacy of double standards?


.[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

here's a good list of what logical fallacies REALLY are.

 

[praying]

Then you have not been reading closely.

I know I explained this to uphill alone at least 8 times .

Sure I have, you said it was based on intent. If my intent is not to get pregnant this month or next month or for the next six months then I am use it as a form of birth control. My intent is not to never get pregnant just to not get pregnant now. Is it okay because it is a faulty non-reliable mehtod of birth control.