Would it be sin?!?

[Benedicta00]

I am aware, and its not 100% foolproof. My third daughter was the surprise, and I was breastfeeding my newborn, plus using two forms of birth control at the time. =)

You have to breastfeed in a very specific way in order it to truly suppress ovulation.

 

[KJVisTruth]

You have to breastfeed in a very specific way in order it to truly suppress ovulation.

Theres only one way to breastfeed. ;p Its also common knowledge that the more kids a woman has, breastfeeding as a birth control method greatly, greatly reduces in its effectiveness.

 

[Benedicta00]

you can continue to think so, if you wish. I haven't seen a clearly logical argument from your position yet, only argument from supposed authority.

That other non catholics agree with and not because of authority but because of the bible.

This posses a problem for stability of your argument- in fact it discredits it.

 

[Benedicta00]

Theres only one way to breastfeed. ;p Its also common knowledge that the more kids a woman has, breastfeeding as a birth control method greatly, greatly reduces in its effectiveness.

In order to suppress ovulation a mother has to exclusively breastfeed, that meas no water, no pacifiers, no solid foods, no bottle, no skipping feeding at all. the baby can not lessen the amount of their intake of breast milk. If breastfeeding is consistant that ovulation stay suppressed.

This is a fact.

 

[KJVisTruth]

In order to suppress ovulation a mother has to exclusively breastfeed, that meas no water, no pacifiers, no solid foods, no bottle, no skipping feeding at all. the baby can not lessen the amount of their intake of breast milk. If breastfeeding is consistant that ovulation stay suppressed.

This is a fact.

My friend, all my babies have never received formula, not even once. I promise you, I was breastfeeding exclusively!

 

[Benedicta00]

there we go again with the assertion that only the RCC is the church of Christ.

Until you can prove other wise, uphill, until you can prove otherwise...

Again, we have to look at what the bible DOES say,

To be fruitful and to multiply and that God opens and closes the womb. Now show me your verses ha contradict this.

 

[Benedicta00]

My friend, all my babies have never received formula, not even once. I promise you, I was breastfeeding exclusively!

You still don't understand and I feel you are saying this because you just do not want to have to concede anything. Go research what I'm saying- this is not a Catholic thing.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Emphasis mine.

How beautiful a story. And that's all I ask other here's to do, don't take my word for it, pray about it.

If one is sincerely seeing truth, and God knows if they are, they will find it.

aaaand those who use contraceptives don't pray about the matter? Bold assertion....

 

[Uphill Battle]

Until you can prove other wise, uphill, until you can prove otherwise...



To be fruitful and to multiply and that God opens and closes the womb. Now show me your verses ha contradict this.

I don't have to prove squat, though.... I make no claims to be a member of the only church of Christ. Those who make the claim, must prove it. and this is something you cannot do.

 

[UberLutheran]

No, this is a false statement. I think you should retract it for the sake of not baring a false witness against us. It disturbs our peace to read statements about our faith that arent true.

We believe it because we believe God was clear in both the old and the new testament with regards to the sanctity of life.

Don't you believe in the the sanctity of life?

We view being open to the possibility of new life is respecting the sanctity of life even if God (not man) has closed the womb. Our hearts should then be open to life if a miracle of such should occur.

I honestly do not see why other Christians would find fault with our beliefs and how we view that all life, even potential life is sacred.

Well, it disturbs my peace to be told that my church (the Lutheran Church) is not properly a church, but an "ecclesial union" -- and this after the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation worked on the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification; and it disturbs my peace to be told as a Lutheran, I follow a man (and not God) -- but I've learned to live with it.

I certainly do believe in the sanctity of life. That's why I have a living will, a durable power of attorney, and a durable power of attorney for medical decisions so my wishes will be followed at the time of my death.

I think it would have been nice had God cared about the "sanctity of life" of the citizens of Jericho in Joshua 6:20-21:

20 So the people shouted, and the priests blew the trumpets. It happened, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him,and they took the city. 21 They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, both young and old, and ox, and sheep, and donkey, with the edge of the sword.
​

And then there are the collective genocides of Joshua 10:

1 Now it happened when Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard how Joshua had taken Ai, and had utterly destroyed it; as he had don eto Jericho and her king, so he had done to Ai and her king; and how the inhabitants of Gibeon had made peace with Israel, and were among them; 2 that they were very afraid, because Gibeon was a great city, as one of the royal cities, and because it was greater than Ai, and allits men were mighty. 3 Therefore Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem sent to Hoham king of Hebron, to Piram king of Jarmuth, to Japhia king of Lachish, and toDebir king of Eglon, saying, 4 “Come up to me, and help me, and let us strike Gibeon; for it has made peace with Joshua and with the children of Israel.” 5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together, and went up, they and all their armies, and encamped against Gibeon, and made war againstit. 6 The men of Gibeon sent to Joshua to the camp to Gilgal, saying, “Don’t abandon your servants! Come up to us quickly, and save us,and help us; for all the kings of the Amorites that dwell in the hill country have gathered together against us.”

7 So Joshua went up from Gilgal, he, and all the people of war with him, and all the mighty men of valor. 8 Yahweh said to Joshua, “Don’t fear them, for I have delivered them into your hands. Not a man of them will stand before you.”

9 Joshua therefore came on them suddenly. He went up from Gilgal all night. 10 Yahweh confused them before Israel, and he killed them with a great slaughter at Gibeon, and chased them by the way of the ascentof Beth Horon, and struck them to Azekah and to Makkedah. 11 It happened, as they fled from before Israel, while they were at the descent of Beth Horon, that Yahweh cast down great stones from the sky on them to Azekah, and they died. There were more who died from the hailstones than who the children of Israel killed with the sword.

12 Then Joshua spoke to Yahweh in the day when Yahweh delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still on Gibeon! You, moon, stop in the valley of Aijalon!”

13 The sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation had avenged themselves of their enemies. Isn’t this written in the book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of the sky, and didn’t hurry to go down about a whole day. 14 There was no day like that before it or after it, that Yahweh listened to the voice of a man; for Yahweh fought for Israel.

15 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to the camp to Gilgal. 16 These five kings fled, and hid themselves in the cave at Makkedah. 17 Joshua was told, saying, “The five kings are found, hidden in the cave at Makkedah.”

18 Joshua said, “Roll large stones to the mouth of the cave, and set men by it to guard them; 19 but don’t stay. Pursue your enemies, and them from the rear. Don’t allow them to enter into their cities; for Yahweh your God has delivered them into your hand.”

20 It happened, when Joshua and the children of Israel had finished killing them with a very great slaughter until they were consumed,and the remnant which remained of them had entered into the fortified cities, 21 that all the people returned to the camp to Joshua at Makkedah in peace. None moved his tongue against any of the children of Israel. 22 Then Joshua said, “Open the mouth of the cave, and bring those five kings out of the cave to me.”

23 They did so, and brought those five kings out of the cave to him: the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth,the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon. 24 It happened, when they brought those kings out to Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said to the chiefs ofthe men of war who went with him, “Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings.”

They came near, and put their feet on their necks.

25 Joshua said to them, “Don’t be afraid, nor be dismayed. Be strong and of good courage, for Yahweh will do this to all your enemies against whom you fight.”

26 Afterward Joshua struck them, put them to death, and hanged them on five trees. They were hanging on the trees until the evening. 27 It happened at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave in which they had hidden themselves, and laid great stones on the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day.

28 Joshua took Makkedah on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with its king. He utterly destroyed them and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining. He did to the king of Makkedah as he had done to the king of Jericho.

29 Joshua passed from Makkedah, and all Israel with him, to Libnah, and fought against Libnah. 30 Yahweh delivered it also, with its king, into the hand of Israel. He struck it with the edge of the sword, and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining in it. He did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.

31 Joshua passed from Libnah, and all Israel with him, to Lachish, and encamped against it, and fought against it. 32 Yahweh delivered Lachish into the hand of Israel. He took it on the second day, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with allthe souls who were in it, according to all that he had done to Libnah. 33 Then Horam king of Gezer came up to help Lachish; and Joshua struck him and his people, until he had left him none remaining.

34 Joshua passed from Lachish, and all Israel with him, to Eglon; and they encamped against it fought against it. 35 They took it on that day, and struck it with the edge of the sword. He utterly destroyed all the souls who were in it that day,according to all that he had done to Lachish.

36 Joshua went up from Eglon, and all Israel with him, to Hebron; and they fought against it. 37 They took it, and struck it with the edge of the sword, with its king and all its cities, and all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining, according to all that he had done to Eglon; but he utterly destroyed it, and all the souls who were in it.

38 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to Debir, and fought against it. 39 He took it, with its king and all its cities. They struck them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed all the souls who were in it. He left none remaining. As he had done to Hebron, so he did to Debir, and to its king; as he had done also to Libnah, and to its king. 40 So Joshua struck all the land, the hill country, and the South, and the lowland, and the slopes, and all their kings. He left none remaining, but he utterly destroyed all that breathed, as Yahweh, the God of Israel, commanded. 41 Joshua struck them from Kadesh Barnea even to Gaza, and all the country of Goshen, even to Gibeon. 42 Joshua took all these kings and their land at one time, because Yahweh, the God of Israel, fought for Israel. 43 Joshua returned, and all Israel with him, to the camp to Gilgal.
​

And regarding the sanctity of life -- I'll bet if we had the opportunity to ask them, the residents of Gilgal, Makkadeh, Libnah, Lachish, Eglon, Hebron and Debir migh have preferred having their sanctity of life preserved as well -- considering that Joshua killed old men and women, young men and women, and children and babies alike!

 

[Benedicta00]

Once again, you're more than welcome to share in the realm of opinions and ideas.

But do NOT take the "You're sinning and I am not" approach - especially in light of the fact that you have no Biblical evidence to back up your beliefs.

Where in the bible did God give permission to alter the human body with regards to fertility? How is NFP altering the body?

 

[KJVisTruth]

You still don't understand and I feel you are saying this because you just do not want to have to concede anything. Go research what I'm saying- this is not a Catholic thing.

I am telling you the truth, nothing more. Some people really are extremely fertile, like me and thats why theres birth control, has it occurred to you thats why they say nothing is 100%? We are thankful for that, God truly provides.

 

[praying]

Interesting how some want to equate pregnancy, a natural, intended state by our Creator, with a disease process . . . . .


.

However do you think our creator intended for us to potentially be pregnant all the time?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Because NFP works with the creation of the human body and how God designed fertility and it does not attempted to alter it and change it.

Where in the bible did God give permission to alter the human body with regards to fertility?

He never did Uphill, He never did.

.

you never addressed the issue directly. Where did he ever say Mary was sinless? ok then, if it isn't in there, we cannot do/believe it.

Again, we need to pay attention to what the bible DOES say.

Sin is not subjective.

Do you realize you just said the same as "I don't believe abortion is right but I believe in a woman's right to chose it." That is the subjectivness that keeps baby killing legal.

It's the John Kerry- "I can't impose my beliefs on others..."

It's why we can't pray in public schools, it's why the 10 commandments of God have been kicked out of the public sector.

It's secularism and atheism, not Christianity.

How are you equating what I'm saying with abortion? I said nothing in support of termination of life. You are grasping at straws.

And that is not a sin if you have a grave reasons to avoid pregnancy. This makes time #7 me telling you this.

What is at the heart here is, NFP allows us to be open to life, to God working and it does not take away the total self giving of one to the other.

The removal of the total self giving is what equates sterilization with sodomy.

fine then, non permanent methods should be just fine, such as condoms, as they don't alter the body. That isn't your real issue though, is it?

No, that's not true. It also is used to achieve it, have you forgotten that?

Really and truly- you need to be honest with yourself. It's using nature in a appropriate way and using the knowledge of how our body works. It's not "controlling birth." How we use it can be, but NFP itself does "control birth."



Because we are leaving fertility in tact and not removing it form our being.



No because my fertility is still there intact. I have not suppressed it nor have I mutilated it.

But you don't use it exclusively for acheiving pregnancy, do you? In fact, 98% of the time, you are using it to AVOID pregnancy. Intact or not, you are avoiding pregnancy, which is no different from using a condom.

Wait hold up, what you are thinking here? That we have to have relations daily or only when we are fertile least we sin?
We can chose to have relations when we chose to have it consenually.
If we chose to not have relations during the fertile phase, what sin are we committing?
I don't think you realize, having to use NFP for a grave reason- is a cross to us, not something to celebrate or to feel relive about, not worrying about having more kids.
It's a cross to have to avoid pregnancy, not a freedom.
We view it as a sacrifice to use NFP.
It's limiting it, it's not doing everything humanly possible to do away with the chances.
See the difference?
God designed the body, not us but you feel we can alter it. That is what I find odd. Why do you feel that's okay?
And if we have to limit the chance for a grave reason, there is no sin in that, for the 8th time now.
But I'm keeping my full fertility in tact aren't I? that's the core difference here. ABC and operations do not do that.
Now who's being hypocritical here? "I'm open to life but I'm removing my fertility or chemically suppressing it."

Again, if altering the body was the real issue, than condoms, diaphrams, etc... would be just fine. You don't think they are, though, do you? How is my view hypocritical? Please point out the hypocracy. I believe that God gives us the choice. You pronounce sin on others for the exact same thing you are doing, just because they use a different method. IMHO, THAT is hypocracy.

Sin is not subjective.

Consider the following scripture.

Romans 14:1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Tell me if eating meat is a sin. Remember, you can't be subjective.

 

[thereselittleflower]

And, quite frankly, I think that some people need to start reading the Bible before condemning certain things as "sin" and "marital sodomy."

Sharing opinions is one thing, standing in the place of God and raining down judgment is quite another.

And so one should not stand clearly for the truth. Becaues it might convict others of sin?

Where would we be if everyone did that?

The judgement that is forbidden in the scriptures is personal judgement of another's standing with God.

Where I have done such a thing? Where have I said anyone is going to hell because they do a certain thing?

We are to expose sin. That does not mean we judge another's PERSONAL standing with God.


Their own conscience will accuse if it is properly formed and open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit if they are engaged in sin . . .


You falsely accuse. Especially since I have spent over 30 years reading the bible - one of my last is so dog eared it isn't funny . . .

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin if one's heart and mind is receptive .. .

We are given the task of clearly pointing out what is sin . .

By doing so, we are free of the blood of others, for as watchmen in the wall, if we do not sound the warning, then the blood of those who are taken by sin will be upon our hands. . . .

It is wrong to accuse others as you have done simply because they stand up as watchmen on the wall and sound a clear call of warning.


Beware . .

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.​

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?​

.

 

[thereselittleflower]

However do you think our creator intended for us to potentially be pregnant all the time?

Why do you think that?


.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Theres only one way to breastfeed. ;p Its also common knowledge that the more kids a woman has, breastfeeding as a birth control method greatly, greatly reduces in its effectiveness.

Horsefeathers . . . there are many ways to breastfeed . . .

Obviously, you are not one who has much personal experience in this matter . .

.

 

[praying]

For the 6t time now... it's the intent makes it a sin ad /or it's the means we use too.

Correct me if I wrong, is not the intent of NFP to avoid pregnancy, to plan when, we as couples can seek sexual gratification with the least chance of conceiving? Is that not the same intent as birth control? The only difference being birth control being much more reliable.

 

[thereselittleflower]

My friend, all my babies have never received formula, not even once. I promise you, I was breastfeeding exclusively!

That was only one of the conditions given . . . .

And even if all the conditions are met, there is no guarantee that it will work in 100% of the cases, just as no birth control, other than abstinence, is guaranteed to work in 100% of the cases.


.

 

[Benedicta00]

aaaand those who use contraceptives don't pray about the matter? Bold assertion....

Do they? I mean really- do they? I'm asking?

That would be a real good poll. To ask how many prayed and not just once and was done with it and went on to get on chemicals OR to have themselves made sterile never looking back again.

How may pray daily over their fertility and leave it God?

the reality is, for practicing Christians, they were told it's okay to take B/C so they feel they do not have to pray over it.

But for those who do, they may pray once and then fix themselves and go about their business not really looking back.

For the others, they kept looking back which led them to come to believe ABC and sterlization is wrong.

Others like TwinCrier prayed about it and had their eyes open to it.

Which leads me to asks, if one prayers about it and the other does too but both comes to a different conclusion- who's being lead by the Holy Spirit and who isn't since the HS is not going to convict two different people to believe to different things.