• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Would it be sin?!?

Did this couple sin in their actions?

  • No, of course not.

  • Yes, it is still sin.

  • Don't know/other (please specify.)


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
right. But that isn't the reasoning that witchcraft is condemned, now is it?
yes, It is. the sin involves manipulating others and situations to get what you want. . that indirectly is idolatry.

God isn't your God but you are your god and you use witchcraft and the enemy to get what you want.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I still see that nobody has truly addressed the OP, or at least, my post shortly after. Is God more concerned with procreation that risking pain, and death? I know that NFP has been forwarded, but it is approximately 70% effective... hardly the answer, as the risk is still great.
Excuse me- you certainly have been answerd. No, we can not take the easy way out.

Trust God even with your life. If you are a Christian, that shouldn't be a problem.
 
Upvote 0

Uphill Battle

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2005
18,279
1,221
48
✟23,416.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Excuse me- you certainly have been answerd. No, we can not take the easy way out.

Trust God even with your life. If you are a Christian, that shouldn't be a problem.
I trust God with my life. I also trust that God gave me the wisdom to act accordingly. Would you go to a doctor if cancer is found? Or trust God with your life, and do nothing? I do not believe that God expects us to simply be, and not use discernment and wisdom. Why would he give us intelligence in the first place?

And I assure, you, I am a Christian.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
Some more interesting information - please take time to read - it is fascinating:
In 1930, the Anglican Church made a decision that proved tragic for the entire world. About the only two voices that realized the problem were, of course, the Catholic Church, and surprisingly, an agnostic.

The year is 1932. On the Continent, Adolf Hitler is still 11 months away from gaining control of the German government. Though he continues to search for a way to gain the electoral majority necessary to rule Germany, he has already won a major victory in England, a victory that will continue to grow and metastasize long after he lies dead from a self-inflicted gunshot wound in a burning bunker in Berlin 13 years in the future.

Yet, even as English Churchmen nurture the seed of Hitler's philosophy on their isle, another voice has risen from among the inhabitants of that gallant land. This voice has spent the last two years forming one of the most insightful and strident attacks on Nazi philosophy ever concocted, and it is now, in February, 1932, that the author releases his work into the stream of history. The battle between the philosophies continues to be fought down to this very day: the battle between the eugenics, advocated in seminal form by the Church of England, and the natural law, upheld by an agnostic who saw the preposterous conclusions to which the contraceptive philosophy must inevitably lead.

The agnostic was Aldous Huxley; his book, Brave New World, would constitute not only an incredibly prophetic description of the contracepting society, but also a deft parody of the Christian church which first legalized the idea. Prior to 1930, contraception had been uniformly condemned by every Christian denomination in the world since the death of Christ.

By the early 1920s, Margaret Sanger and several of her English lovers were touting contraception and involuntary sterilization as a way to limit the breeding of the "human weeds," as Sanger called them: the insane, the mentally-retarded, criminals, and people with Slavic, Southern Mediterranean, Jewish, black or Catholic backgrounds (ironically, Sanger was herself raised by a Catholic mother). Though most supporters of atheistic rationalist scientific progress don't advertise it, Hitler's racial purity schemes were nothing more than the application of 1920s "cutting-edge" biology. When this attitude encountered Christianity, the results were uniformly explosive. Ever since 1867, Anglican bishops had been meeting roughly every ten years at Lambeth Palace, London, in order to discern how best to govern their Church. Mounting eugenics pressures had required the bishops in both the 1908 and the 1920 conferences to fiercely condemn contraception. But the constant eugenics drumbeat would not let up.

The 1930 conference brought even greater internal challenges; many of the people advising the bishops were eugenicists, indeed, at least one attendee, the Reverend Doctor D.S. Bailey, would be both a member of the International Eugenics Society and an active participant in the conference.

Between the general mood of society and the insistence of advisors, the Anglican bishops were placed under extreme pressure to allow some form of artificial contraception. On August 14, 1930, after heated debate, they voted 193 to 67, with 14 abstentions, to permit the use of contraceptives at the discretion of married couples. The decision rocked the Christian world — it was the first time any Christian Church had dared to attack the underlying foundations of the sacred marital act, the act in which another image of God was brought into creation through the parents' participation in co-creation with God. Pope Pius XI, deeply saddened, issued Casti Connubii, just four short months later on December 31, 1930, reiterating the constant Christian teaching that artificial contraception was forbidden as an intrinsically evil act.

H.G. Wells' stories of a scientific utopia combined with the publication of the Lambeth decision and Casti Connubii to fire Huxley's imagination. What would a society which fully endorsed contraception look like? Though Huxley was by no means a Catholic, he possessed a keen intellect and an incisive pen.

His conclusions were soon plain — society as we understood it would fail to survive. Writing in the grand tradition of English parody, he constructed a wickedly accurate portrayal of the contraceptive society, written so as to ensure his English audience would recognize his portrayal of the Church which had set them on the road toward it. In so doing, he inadvertently created an allegory which supports Catholic teaching.

......Though Huxley, the man whom a contemporary called a "neo-pagan" and who eventually began to dabble with Hinduism, did not consciously understand the theology which lies behind the acts of sexuality and contraception, he instinctively understood their interconnection. Because he wanted his Brave New World society to embrace and live out a contraceptive mentality, it replaces the tree with the industrial complex. Huxley understood that universal sterility is unnatural, and no tree, no living thing could produce it. By removing pregnancy, his worldly society removes the curse of the pain of childbirth. His society further ensures this by populating itself with abortion clinics and factories which bring children into existence through in vitro fertilization, in vitro gestation and cloning. Most women are created sterile, but a few are permitted to retain their fertility so their eggs could be harvested in order to produce the next generation. These women are distinguished by their contraceptive cartridge belts, which they are drilled to use from the time of childhood.

The contraceptive society desires not children, but pleasure. Where there is no desire for children, there is likewise no desire for parents — indeed, the very words "mother" and "father" are curse words, the lowest and most vile form of insult, as the phrases "Mary, our Mother" and "Our Father" are in certain circles today. But a sterile world is impossible to live with on a daily basis. The delight in worldly pleasure leaves an ever-thirsting spiritual desert. His society solves this problem with "soma" — the psychedelic wonder-drug which removes the individual from reality. Still, the use of soma is not enough. People need symbols and liturgy, and Huxley knows it. Fortunately, the Anglican Church left his fictional society a rich legacy. They have the sign of the "T," a reminder of the first mass-produced item in the world, the Model-T Ford, and not-so-coincidentally a broken echo of the Cross, with its vertical connection to heaven cut off:

.....In less than 180 devastating pages, Aldous Huxley not only tears the mask from the face of contraception, he also provides an excellent proof for the necessity of the papal office. The Anglican Conferences which Huxley so neatly parodied demonstrated that any essentially national church must eventually fall prey to the social pressures they operate within. The Anglican Church, having no leader outside of England, was simply unable to protect itself from the concerns of the country and the people to whom they ministered. The fears sown by the eugenicists and the selfishness of the people were simply too compelling for any religious leader to publicly denounce. Any Church which permitted its doctrines to be socially influenced to this degree would eventually allow their cardinals to become "Arch-Community Songsters." As it turned out, the papal office alone possessed the strength to protect Christianity from the lies bound up within the grinning death's heads of the contraceptive mentality and its twin sister, the abortion mill.

......"Did he love me when he begot me?" When we actively put up chemical or physical walls between ourselves, our lover, and the child which might be begotten, will we truly have loved that child into existence as God loved us into existence, Who gave Himself totally for us? Are we acting in the image of the living God?


http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/2.5/story2.html


I will have to read Brave New World again!


.
 
Upvote 0

icedtea

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jan 13, 2006
22,183
1,738
Ohio
✟30,909.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I trust God with my life. I also trust that God gave me the wisdom to act accordingly. Would you go to a doctor if cancer is found? Or trust God with your life, and do nothing? .
Well, cancer is an abnormality and you want it gone. Pregnancy is normal and you may want it.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I'll remember to tell the bipolar person not to take the drugs, as it alters their brain chemistry. I'll remember to tell the morbidly obese person who had stomach stapling. I'll remember to tell the person who takes any medication to alter body state, regardless of reasoning.
You're not listening.

Depressed people need to have their brain chemistry fixed. lain meds fix them.

Fertile woman and men are not broke, in fact they work just fine.

ABC is meant to fix what is working fine? How do you fix something that works?

You are being illogical claiming taking meds when you are sick is the same as taking them when you work fine.

And I have never known ABC's being referred to as "medicine." They are not medicine and you know it. They treat nothing, no medial condition.

They are contraceptives and nothing more.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
I still see that nobody has truly addressed the OP, or at least, my post shortly after. Is God more concerned with procreation that risking pain, and death? I know that NFP has been forwarded, but it is approximately 70% effective... hardly the answer, as the risk is still great.

In this country, our Fathers recognized the right to LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS . . IN THAT ORDER.

Your question goes to a far more fundamental question of the Right to the Pursuit of Happiness . .

A life free of pain and suffering is considered today to be more likely to be a happy one than one threatened with pain and/or death.

So, you are looking at another's happiness. . .

The question is, should the pursuit of one's happiness come at the expense of another's life?

Artificial Birth Control, other than the barrier method, is nothing short of the pursuit of happiness at the expense of another's life, for all forms of ABC, except condoms, can end a life already conceived.


Do we have the right to avoid pain, injury and/or even death at the expense of the life of another?


.
 
Upvote 0

Uphill Battle

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2005
18,279
1,221
48
✟23,416.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
You're not listening.

Depressed people need to have their brain chemistry fixed. lain meds fix them.

Fertile woman and men are not broke, in fact they work just fine.

ABC is meant to fix what is working fine? How do you fix something that works?

You are being illogical claiming taking meds when you are sick is the same as taking them when you work fine.

And I have never known ABC's being referred to as "medicine." They are not medicine and you know it. They treat nothing, no medial condition.

They are contraceptives and nothing more.
so is NFP. RCC approved, birth control, but NFP nonetheless.
 
Upvote 0

thereselittleflower

Well-Known Member
Nov 9, 2003
34,832
1,526
✟57,855.00
Faith
Catholic
I trust God with my life. I also trust that God gave me the wisdom to act accordingly. Would you go to a doctor if cancer is found? Or trust God with your life, and do nothing? I do not believe that God expects us to simply be, and not use discernment and wisdom. Why would he give us intelligence in the first place?

And I assure, you, I am a Christian.

"if" = "since" . . not a question of your status of a Christian . .

.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I trust God with my life. I also trust that God gave me the wisdom to act accordingly. Would you go to a doctor if cancer is found? Or trust God with your life, and do nothing? I do not believe that God expects us to simply be, and not use discernment and wisdom. Why would he give us intelligence in the first place?

And I assure, you, I am a Christian.
This is illogical.

We go to the doctor to get healed, not to take what is in working order and break it.

Now you are the one who is need of some serious scripture that condones us using od given wisdom to recreate our bodies to suit ourselves.

Like I said trust that God will care for all in these situations.

I have for many years and hasn't killed me yet. yes, I am one of these high risk cases and I disagree with all of your opinions which are not in line with scripture.

this isn't a hypothical to me, i;s my real life and I live it every day.

Trusting in God just doesn't seem to be an option for Protestants when it comes to matters of fertility.
 
Upvote 0

Uphill Battle

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2005
18,279
1,221
48
✟23,416.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
"if" = "since" . . not a question of your status of a Christian . .

.
don't worry, didn't think she was saying that.

Just pointing out that a Christian CAN take action, using the wisdom (or for some of us, the lack therof!) God provided.
 
Upvote 0

Uphill Battle

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2005
18,279
1,221
48
✟23,416.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
This is illogical.

We go to the doctor to get healed, not to take what is in working order and break it.

Now you are the one who is need of some serious scripture that condones us using od given wisdom to recreate our bodies to suit ourselves.

Like I said trust that God will care for all in these situations.

I have for many years and hasn't killed me yet. yes, I am one of these high risk cases and I disagree with all of your opinions which are not in line with scripture.

this isn't a hypothical to me, i;s my real life and I live it every day.

Trusting in God just doesn't seem to be an option for Protestants when it comes to matters of fertility.
but, by definition, you go to a doctor, whom are you trusting?

I am not equating Cancer and pregnancy. Pregnancy is not a disease!

However, If you use the "simply trust in God" line, then it applies to everything. You can't say "God, I trust you with the number of kids I have, but if something goes wrong, I'm off to the doctor!" If you want to maintain that you are putting your full faith in God for your life. (this is not a statement against doctors, healthcare, etc... Just that I feel being sanctimonious about one facet, and then being completely different about another, seems highly hypocritical.)
 
Upvote 0

Uphill Battle

Well-Known Member
Apr 25, 2005
18,279
1,221
48
✟23,416.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Lets take another example. In Africa, children are dying of starvation by the droves. Birth control is not practiced in the 3rd world countries, for the most part.

Now, given this fac, would you say God would prefer the starvation of children, or the prevention of pregnancy?
 
  • Like
Reactions: praying
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
so is NFP. RCC approved, birth control, but NFP nonetheless.
Call it want you want. It changes nothing. If we use NFP with the same mentality as the woman who had her organs ripped out, then we sin just as bad.

For the 6t time now... it's the intent makes it a sin ad /or it's the means we use too.


And I can't believe you compared sterilization wit removing wisdom teeth. Do you devalue the reproductive system that much?

We remove wisdom teeth because they do not have a purpose, But our reproductive organs do.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Lets take another example. In Africa, children are dying of starvation by the droves. Birth control is not practiced in the 3rd world countries, for the most part.

Now, given this fac, would you say God would prefer the starvation of children, or the prevention of pregnancy?
how about abstinence? that's not an option?

How about we end world hunger? We can do that you know if we wanted to.
 
Upvote 0

Benedicta00

Well-Known Member
Jun 25, 2003
28,512
838
Visit site
✟55,563.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
but, by definition, you go to a doctor, whom are you trusting?

I am not equating Cancer and pregnancy. Pregnancy is not a disease!

However, If you use the "simply trust in God" line, then it applies to everything. You can't say "God, I trust you with the number of kids I have, but if something goes wrong, I'm off to the doctor!" If you want to maintain that you are putting your full faith in God for your life. (this is not a statement against doctors, healthcare, etc... Just that I feel being sanctimonious about one facet, and then being completely different about another, seems highly hypocritical.)

God gave us doctors and medicine to heal us and to diagnose us. He did not give us doctors to mutilate our working organ that he designed to work in the way they do.

In the bible Jesus says, "the well have no need for a doctor." How is it hypocritical to go to the doctor when sick and to not go to them in order to fix what's not broke?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.