Would it be sin?!?

[TwinCrier]

...Why are you equating pregnancy and fertility which are gifts of God, with illness and disease?...

I notice as well, that any argument for contraception must equate pregnancy with something evil or bad since the purpose is to avoid it, unless YOU (general you) want it, then it must be obtained right now, on your time schedule and your convenience. God created the marriage bed undefiled, but many today feel they must add devices and chemicals into the fray to prevent the logical outcome God designed. And, anyone who doesn't accept this is accused of viewing sex as evil or dirty. Sex is fine the way it was designed by God. The purpose of contraception is to shut out God's plans.

 

[Benedicta00]

The ironic thing here, to me, is that YOU are not "trusting God" either. You're practicing birth control!

Look, I disagree but for the sake of argument, I will give you that. I will allow you to call NFP "Birth control" even though it;s not in of itself. One's intention would make it that.

The key thing here is it's not artificial birth control and that is why it is morally acceptable and ABC is not.

If I were to use it as birth control, ie not wanting more kids from my own free will decision to not want them and not because it's dangerous for me to have them, which would force me to avoid pregnancy, then I would be guilty of the sin of contraception.

Can you at least acknowledge this difference?

If my wife were to die (we've now been married nearly 25 years), and I were to remarry, I would not want to start over with more babies of my own. But even if I did want to start over, vasectomies are reversible. Not a problem.

So you practice YOUR preferred form of birth control, I'll practice mine. We're BOTH practicing birth control. The difference is that I'm not arrogant enough to call somebody else's form of birth control a "sin" and "marital sodomy." And that completely apart from ANY Biblical authority.

This really saddens me. Why aren't you letting God make the choices for you and with you?

Don't you believe in providence? If you were to find yourself with another spouse for what ever reason, then shouldn't you let God be involved in shaping your future with her?

From one Christian to another, I do not understand how we can believe God is sovereign over all things but not when it comes to our fertility.

Why can't you just give that to him along with everything you give to him?

God can not bless you with a baby if you make yourself sterile either through surgery or chemicals.

That is why Theresa said it's equal to sodomy because to say that if God wanted to give children through surgery and chemicals in spite of the intent to never have a child, that will not stop him.

That sounds as ludicrous to us as claiming if God wanted to give children through the act of sodomy- he would.

Why is sodomy forbidden for heterosexual couples? because it's an unnatural act. why is it unnatural? rather what makes marital relations a natural sacred act? You don't have to answer that, it's just something I hope you will ponder.

When a couple conceives even after a tubal or a vasectomy or when they are on chemicals, it's due to the flaw in the either the drug or how one took the drug or with the surgery itself.

No surgery will give you a 100% guarantee that you will never become pregnant.

I do not chalk that up to God's sovereignty but to the fact that medical science in no way can stop life 100%. NO one can, so why are we trying?

Do you see how strong the gift of life itself is? Why it's not working with God but against when we alter the human body?

No matter how we try to alter the human body- we can never do away with life 100%.

These couples not conceive because God intervened and made them pregnant anyway. It's because man still has not found a full proof way- not even with mutilating the reproductive organs, to stifle life.

Anyway, I went off on a tangent, sorry about that but this should show how sacred I believe al of this is.I believe it because I know in my heart of hearts it's true. And this truth, the sacredness of the gift of life and fertility, is worth dying for even.

 

[Benedicta00]

I notice as well, that any argument for contraception must equate pregnancy with something evil or bad since the purpose is to avoid it, unless YOU (general you) want it, then it must be obtained right now, on your time schedule and your convenience. God created the marriage bed undefiled, but many today feel they must add devices and chemicals into the fray to prevent the logical outcome God designed. And, anyone who doesn't accept this is accused of viewing sex as evil or dirty. Sex is fine the way it was designed by God. The purpose of contraception is to shut out God's plans.

And your not catholic right...?

So it's not Rome telling us this and we believe it becuase we're mindless.

It's because it's objectively true.

I know many, probably the majority of non Catholic Christians and even some non Christian religious recognize this is true.

I know it's the minority of Protestants who think they have the right to alter the human body and to control birth.

You know what is really, really sad? That this belief is not rooted in scripture but in atheism and secularism.

Forgive me for saying so but I believe it needed to be said.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Look, I disagree but for the sake of argument, I will give you that. I will allow you to call NFP "Birth control" even though it;s not in of itself. One's intention would make it that.

The key thing here is it's not artificial birth control and that is why it is morally acceptable and ABC is not.

If I were to use it as birth control, ie not wanting more kids from my own free will decision to not want them and not because it's dangerous for me to have them, which would force me to avoid pregnancy, then I would be guilty of the sin of contraception.

Can you at least acknowledge this difference?





This really saddens me. Why aren't you letting God make the choices for you and with you?

Don't you believe in providence? If you were to find yourself with another spouse for what ever reason, then shouldn't you let God be involved in shaping your future with her?

From one Christian to another, I do not understand how we can believe God is sovereign over all things but not when it comes to our fertility.

Why can't you just give that to him along with everything you give to him?

God can not bless you with a baby if you make yourself sterile either through surgery or chemicals.

That is why Theresa said it's equal to sodomy because to say that if God wanted to give children through surgery and chemicals in spite of the intent to never have a child, that will not stop him.

That sounds as ludicrous to us as claiming if God wanted to give children through the act of sodomy- he would.

Why is sodomy forbidden for heterosexual couples? because it's an unnatural act. why is it unnatural? rather what makes marital relations a natural sacred act? You don't have to answer that, it's just something I hope you will ponder.

When a couple conceives even after a tubal or a vasectomy or when they are on chemicals, it's due to the flaw in the either the drug or how one took the drug or with the surgery itself.

No surgery will give you a 100% guarantee that you will never become pregnant.

I do not chalk that up to God's sovereignty but to the fact that medical science in no way can stop life 100%. NO one can, so why are we trying?

Do you see how strong the gift of life itself is? Why it's not working with God but against when we alter the human body?

No matter how we try to alter the human body- we can never do away with life 100%.

These couples not conceive because God intervened and made them pregnant anyway. It's because man still has not found a full proof way- not even with mutilating the reproductive organs, to stifle life.

Anyway, I went off on a tangent, sorry about that but this should show how sacred I believe al of this is.I believe it because I know in my heart of hearts it's true. And this truth, the sacredness of the gift of life and fertility, is worth dying for even.

What distinction is it if it is artificial or not?

I respect your belief. And in such, if you WERE to practice birth control using devices, for you it would be sinful, as you are convicted so.

However, may I make the point that NFP, although not artificial birth control, is attempting to limit pregnancy. Sure, you MAY get pregnant on NFP. You are doing so to AVOID pregnancy, however. That is what NFP is all about, trying to use the cycle of a woman to avoid pregnancy. How is that "Trusting God" in regards to pregnancy? Are you not taking matters in your own hands to avoid pregnancy if possible? If you truly believed that we should be open to pregnancy every time the marital act is engaged, then you would not use NFP, a method of at the very least LIMITING chances of pregnancy.

To state otherwise is splitting hairs, and you are not placing the full level of fertility into God's hands, and IMHO, is a bit on the hypocritical side.

 

[Benedicta00]

I have to say that "yes" it is a sin.

To interfere with the blessings of G-d in such a manner is sinful.

G-d can and does still do miracles in child bearing...maybe not as spectacular as Sarah bearing in her 90's...but the "opening of a womb" or carrying to term when Dr's (science) stated it was impossible is not unheard of....

there are plenty of children in the world that are "miracle" children.

Another non Catholic on board.

Obviously there must be some biblical biases for the Catholic belief because it's NOT only Catholics (who are notoriously known for not obeying the bible only mind you), who agree.

These Christans aren't taking their lead from Rome, so where are they getting this understanding from?

 

[Uphill Battle]

Another non Catholic on board.

Obviously there must be some biblical biases for the Catholic belief because it's NOT only Catholics (who are notoriously known for not obeying the bible only mind you), who agree.

These Christans aren't taking their lead from Rome, so where are they getting this understanding from?

In spite of the Pope's ruling against the Pill and birth control, almost 80% of American Catholic women use contraceptives, and only 29% of American priests believe it is intrinsically immoral.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/timeline/timeline2.html

It would appear that many catholics do not view the Pope as either or authorititative or correct.

You simply must remember that protestants don't claim to hold the right to tell each woman what is sin and what isn't in regards to a non biblical issue.

If a Non Catholic does not practice birth control based on their convictions, GOOD! none of us are advocation mandatory birth control, or anything so foolish.

RCC, on the other hand, is trying to take that position.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Look, I disagree but for the sake of argument, I will give you that. I will allow you to call NFP "Birth control" even though it;s not in of itself. One's intention would make it that.
You need to allow NFP to be called birth control because THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IT IS. If you were NOT trying to NOT get pregnant, you wouldn't use it at all. Period.

The key thing here is it's not artificial birth control and that is why it is morally acceptable and ABC is not.
NFP is just as "artificial" as any other form of birth control in that you are interfering with the natural order and outcome of sexual intercourse. You are artificially manipulating the outcome of sexual intercourse.

If I were to use it as birth control, ie not wanting more kids from my own free will decision to not want them and not because it's dangerous for me to have them, which would force me to avoid pregnancy, then I would be guilty of the sin of contraception.
Once again, I'll remind you that you are using Birth Control for the EXACT SAME REASONS my wife and I are using birth control. It has to do with not getting pregnant. It has to do with not having children 10-months apart. It has to do with controlling the number of children we bear.

Can you at least acknowledge this difference?
No, because there is absolutely no difference.
We are BOTH using Birth Control for one purpose: To NOT get pregnant. Period.




This really saddens me. Why aren't you letting God make the choices for you and with you?
For the same reason YOU aren't!
You are NOT letting God make the choices for you and with you, any more than any non-Catholic person.
You are practicing birth control!

Don't you believe in providence? If you were to find yourself with another spouse for what ever reason, then shouldn't you let God be involved in shaping your future with her?
If my wife died now, I can guarantee you it would be several years before I would even CONSIDER re-marriage.
And, by that time, at the age of 50 - I am not going to start over. And, assuming that my wife would basically be my age, it would be STUPID to think that she would want to bear children at that age.
Non sequitur argument.

From one Christian to another, I do not understand how we can believe God is sovereign over all things but not when it comes to our fertility.
From one birth-control using husband to another birth-control using husband, I cannot understand how you can claim to believe God is sovereign over all things, but not when it comes to your own fertility.

Why can't you just give that to him along with everything you give to him?
For the EXACT same reasons YOU don't.

God can not bless you with a baby if you make yourself sterile either through surgery or chemicals.
God has already blessed me RICHLY 3 times. Two of our children are in their 20s. My quiver is very full, and I do not want to imperil my wife's health by getting her pregnant again.

That is why Theresa said it's equal to sodomy because to say that if God wanted to give children through surgery and chemicals in spite of the intent to never have a child, that will not stop him.
Theresa's reference to marital sex, that does not contain the risk of pregnancy as "marital sodomy" is one of the sickest, most absurd, and asinine comments I have ever read in my life.
By her standards, every post-menopausal couple is having "marital sodomy".
...and to think it came from a person who considers herself a Christian...

That sounds as ludicrous to us as claiming if God wanted to give children through the act of sodomy- he would.

Why is sodomy forbidden for heterosexual couples? because it's an unnatural act. why is it unnatural? rather what makes marital relations a natural sacred act? You don't have to answer that, it's just something I hope you will ponder.
I'm not the least bit interested in anal sex - nor is my wife.
But I'd like for you to give me Book, Chapter and Verse where the Bible says that that is forbidden for a husband and wife.

When a couple conceives even after a tubal or a vasectomy or when they are on chemicals, it's due to the flaw in the either the drug or how one took the drug or with the surgery itself.
...and the point is?

No surgery will give you a 100% guarantee that you will never become pregnant.
Then we're in the same boat, aren't we?
You and I are BOTH using Birth Control that is NOT 100% guaranteed.

I do not chalk that up to God's sovereignty but to the fact that medical science in no way can stop life 100%. NO one can, so why are we trying?
Do you see how strong the gift of life itself is? Why it's not working with God but against when we alter the human body?
No matter how we try to alter the human body- we can never do away with life 100%.
These couples not conceive because God intervened and made them pregnant anyway. It's because man still has not found a full proof way- not even with mutilating the reproductive organs, to stifle life.
Anyway, I went off on a tangent, sorry about that but this should show how sacred I believe al of this is.I believe it because I know in my heart of hearts it's true. And this truth, the sacredness of the gift of life and fertility, is worth dying for even.
My wife and I have 3 children.
Do NOT presume to lecture me as to whether or not we believe in the sacredness of life.
I also believe that my wife's life is sacred enough that I do not want to imperil her.

Once again, you're more than welcome to share in the realm of opinions and ideas.

But do NOT take the "You're sinning and I am not" approach - especially in light of the fact that you have no Biblical evidence to back up your beliefs.

 

[TwinCrier]

And your not catholic right...?

So it's not Rome telling us this and we believe it becuase we're mindless.

It's because it's objectively true.

I know many, probably the majority of non Catholic Christians and even some non Christian religious recognize this is true.

I know it's the minority of Protestants who think they have the right to alter the human body and to control birth.

You know what is really, really sad? That this belief is not rooted in scripture but in atheism and secularism.

Forgive me for saying so but I believe it needed to be said.

That is correct. I was convicted that birth control was a sin when a Catholic showed me from the bible. I didn't want to believe it, but I prayed about it, was shown by the Holy Spirit that indeed it was sin, and repented of my past use of birth control. All protestant denominations used to oppose artifical birth control untill about a hundred years ago. God designed the female body to only ovulate once a month, and even under ideal situations, there is only a 17% chance that conception and implantation will occur not to mention the nearly 20% rate of miscarriage. God designed things perfect.

 

[Benedicta00]

What distinction is it if it is artificial or not?

Because NFP works with the creation of the human body and how God designed fertility and it does not attempted to alter it and change it.

Where in the bible did God give permission to alter the human body with regards to fertility?

He never did Uphill, He never did.

I respect your belief. And in such, if you WERE to practice birth control using devices, for you it would be sinful, as you are convicted so

.

Sin is not subjective.

Do you realize you just said the same as "I don't believe abortion is right but I believe in a woman's right to chose it." That is the subjectivness that keeps baby killing legal.

It's the John Kerry- "I can't impose my beliefs on others..."

It's why we can't pray in public schools, it's why the 10 commandments of God have been kicked out of the public sector.

It's secularism and atheism, not Christianity.

However, may I make the point that NFP, although not artificial birth control, is attempting to limit pregnancy. Sure, you MAY get pregnant on NFP. You are doing so to AVOID pregnancy, however.

And that is not a sin if you have a grave reasons to avoid pregnancy. This makes time #7 me telling you this.

What is at the heart here is, NFP allows us to be open to life, to God working and it does not take away the total self giving of one to the other.

The removal of the total self giving is what equates sterilization with sodomy.

NFP is open to life the next day, the next week, next year if our situation changes or if we should prayfully decided we are willing to the chance trusting God's will no matter outcome. ABC and operations do not allow for that.

That is what NFP is all about, trying to use the cycle of a woman to avoid pregnancy.

No, that's not true. It also is used to achieve it, have you forgotten that?

Really and truly- you need to be honest with yourself. It's using nature in a appropriate way and using the knowledge of how our body works. It's not "controlling birth." How we use it can be, but NFP itself does "control birth."

How is that "Trusting God" in regards to pregnancy?

Because we are leaving fertility in tact and not removing it form our being.

Are you not taking matters in your own hands to avoid pregnancy if possible?

No because my fertility is still there intact. I have not suppressed it nor have I mutilated it.

If you truly believed that we should be open to pregnancy every time the marital act is engaged, then you would not use NFP,

Wait hold up, what you are thinking here? That we have to have relations daily or only when we are fertile least we sin?

We can chose to have relations when we chose to have it consenually.

If we chose to not have relations during the fertile phase, what sin are we committing?

I don't think you realize, having to use NFP for a grave reason- is a cross to us, not something to celebrate or to feel relive about, not worrying about having more kids.

It's a cross to have to avoid pregnancy, not a freedom.
We view it as a sacrifice to use NFP.

a method of at the very least LIMITING chances of pregnancy.

It's limiting it, it's not doing everything humanly possible to do away with the chances.

See the difference?

God designed the body, not us but you feel we can alter it. That is what I find odd. Why do you feel that's okay?

And if we have to limit the chance for a grave reason, there is no sin in that, for the 8th time now.

To state otherwise is splitting hairs, and you are not placing the full level of fertility into God's hands, and IMHO, is a bit on the hypocritical side.

But I'm keeping my full fertility in tact aren't I? that's the core difference here. ABC and operations do not do that.


Now who's being hypocritical here? "I'm open to life but I'm removing my fertility or chemically suppressing it."

 

[praying]

When using NFP, It's the mentality of the user that make it contraception. When that mentality is a contraceptive one, then you enter into sin.

I am confused by this, is not the intent of NFP to avoid pregnancy, thus a contraceptive mentality? If you are not trying to not get pregnant why use NFP? Barring of course medical reasons such as stated by the OP.

 

[Benedicta00]

That is correct. I was convicted that birth control was a sin when a Catholic showed me from the bible. I didn't want to believe it, but I prayed about it, was shown by the Holy Spirit that indeed it was sin, and repented of my past use of birth control. All protestant denominations used to oppose artifical birth control untill about a hundred years ago. God designed the female body to only ovulate once a month, and even under ideal situations, there is only a 17% chance that conception and implantation will occur not to mention the nearly 20% rate of miscarriage. God designed things perfect.

Emphasis mine.

How beautiful a story. And that's all I ask other here's to do, don't take my word for it, pray about it.

If one is sincerely seeing truth, and God knows if they are, they will find it.

 

[praying]

It is an openness to life and to God's command to be fertile and multiple and fill the earth . . the earth is not yet filled, nowhere close to being filled . .. overcrowded in some areas, yes .. but not filled . . .


.

So do you think that God literally wants us to fil lthe earth to the point of overcrowding and not be able to sustain oursleves? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[praying]

what is so wrong with using the body the way God made it instead of recreating it with chemicals and surgeries?

How does this address the use of condoms?

 

[KJVisTruth]

Ok, I gotta jump in here for a second and ask, has anyone realized theres such a thing as being TOO fertile? Thats usually more problematic than a blessing; for example, getting pregnant again right after you have given birth, no matter how careful you were and in that instance, thats not for the best of the newborn. I speak from experience (my own and some friends I know), and I thank God that all kinds of birth control/sterilitization exist.

Just thought I d point that out.

 

[praying]

Do you know what the definition of Sodomy actually is? I was pretty amazed when I found out:

Sodomy
SOD'OMY, n. A crime against nature.​

That was the 1828 Noah Webster's definition.

.

I hate to burst Noah's bubble but if you looked up the N word in that dictionary (and you would find itin there) guess what definition you would find, that's right a black person. So Noah's idea of how words should be defined in 1828 really doesn't mean much.

 

[Benedicta00]

In spite of the Pope's ruling against the Pill and birth control, almost 80% of American Catholic women use contraceptives, and only 29% of American priests believe it is intrinsically immoral.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/pill/timeline/timeline2.html

It would appear that many catholics do not view the Pope as either or authorititative or correct.

Well, out goes through the window the reason we believe it is because the pope told us to.

You simply must remember that protestants don't claim to hold the right to tell each woman what is sin and what isn't in regards to a non biblical issue.

have you establish infallibly how we use or abuse our fertility is a non biblical issue?

because if you did... i missed it.

and that makes no sense, if fertility is a non biblical, issue, how does that translate your mind that you have a license to do what ever you want with it?

And atheist and secularized people tell us we have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body.

You have successfully made our argument for us that ABC is a bed partner to abortion.

Lord have mercy.

It's that very mind set that led us down the path of legalizing baby killing. But the shame is, it's not the reason (woman's rights) it's the excuse we hide behind that blinds us to the evil of abortion.

If a Non Catholic does not practice birth control based on their convictions, GOOD! none of us are advocation mandatory birth control, or anything so foolish.

As strong as you are advocating sterilization and ABC and as strongly as you have objected to our reasons given for our beliefs, you could have fooled me.

But the core here is that you have overlooked is, non catholics are in agreement because of the bible , not in spite of it.

RCC, on the other hand, is trying to take that position.

Yes, because it's objectively truly, rooted in scripture which teaches us how sacred human life and fertility is.

Your view, I'm sorry but is rooted in atheism and secularism.

 

[Benedicta00]

Ok, I gotta jump in here for a second and ask, has anyone realized theres such a thing as being TOO fertile? Thats usually more problematic than a blessing; for example, getting pregnant again right after you have given birth, no matter how careful you were and in that instance, thats not for the best of the newborn. I speak from experience (my own and some friends I know), and I thank God that all kinds of birth control/sterilitization exist.

Just thought I d point that out.

Are you unaware of breastfeeding and not the secularized version of it? How it suppresses ovulation?

It's all God's way of keeping us heatly while we respect him.

 

[Benedicta00]

How does this address the use of condoms?

It doesn't. Condemns are unacceptable for a different reason.

 

[KJVisTruth]

Are you unaware of breastfeeding and not the secularized version of it? How it suppresses ovulation?

It's all God's way of keeping us heatly while we respect him.

I am aware, and its not 100% foolproof. My third daughter was the surprise, and I was breastfeeding my newborn, plus using two forms of birth control at the time. =)

 

[Benedicta00]

So do you think that God literally wants us to fil lthe earth to the point of overcrowding and not be able to sustain oursleves? That makes absolutely no sense to me.

no- what makes you think that?