Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

[The Times]

@Colter I as a second witness ask you the same question as @Doug Melven below.....

Do you believe Paul was a liar? He said Christ appeared to him, just as He did to the other Apostles.
1 Corinthians 15:6-8

 

[The Times]

@Colter if you say yes to the meet between the Lord and the 500, but not for the case of Paul's testimony with reference to posts #99 and #101, then.....

I would like to ask you by what authority do you discount portions of the authorised Acts of the Apostles. Where is your authority in this matter to refute the testimony of Paul when Paul said.....

"Christ had appeared to me just as he did to the other Apostles" (1 Corinthians 9:1)

Also take note, that just like Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10, Paul and Ananias in Acts 9 have been directed to meet by The Holy Spirit, in corroborating the event on the road to Damascus. The others with Paul were also witnesses to what they heard.

With reference to my post #87, I believe you do NOT possess the authority to discount portions of an authorised Book of the Apostles, by the original 72 Apostles who sanctioned it as a controlled document to be authorised by the whole Church (singular), within the 1st Century context.

So again let me ask you, where do you get your authority to discount portions of the Book of Acts?

Also take heed, that to claim Paul is a liar and did not meet Jesus on the road to Damascus is also making the claim that the disciple Ananais had lied, the Apostles had lied in authorising the book, most importantly the Lord lied when saying....

"Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

“Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

I am expecting an honest and genuine answer from you in this regard. Thankyou!

 

[RDKirk]

The false doctrine of the inspiration of scripture is man made, it was invented by holy men in order to maintain control of people.


As for Paul Jesus had already returned to heaven. While he may have had a profound spiritual experience, he didn't meet personally with Jesus.

Those two paragraphs are in conflict with each other.

 

[zoidar]

That is, in fact, exactly what the Holy Spirit does through Paul.

Romans, for instance, explains how Jesus' healing of the Syrophoenician Woman is foreshadowed in the Torah.

Could you give some examples of this?

John 15
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

This is one example. Jesus says we are to keep his commandments to be saved, yet people read Paul and believe that they don't have to keep Jesus commandments for salvation.

Another example is this:

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Jesus says we have to obey him to have eternal life, but many people think all you have to do is trust in Jesus for salvation. That's how wrong it can get starting from Paul instead of Jesus.

 

[Colter]

With reference to my post #97, I gather from your above reply that the 500 did meet the Lord, according to your definition of "meet", however Paul did not meet the Lord, but had a conversion experience like yourself, is that right?

The 500 hundred met with the resurrected Lord literally while he was on earth, before he ascended into heaven. Paul had a spiritual experience, a psychic change, he was born again of the spirit, he became a believer in Jesus, he became the first great evangelist, he preached about Jesus as he understood him.

 

[Colter]

Those two paragraphs are in conflict with each other.

Only to black and white thinkers. Its like the newspaper, we can get information about events bearing in mind the bias and agenda of the journalists.

 

[Colter]

@Colter if you say yes to the meet between the Lord and the 500, but not for the case of Paul's testimony with reference to posts #99 and #101, then.....

I would like to ask you by what authority do you discount portions of the authorised Acts of the Apostles. Where is your authority in this matter to refute the testimony of Paul when Paul said.....

"Christ had appeared to me just as he did to the other Apostles" (1 Corinthians 9:1)

Also take note, that just like Peter and Cornelius in Acts 10, Paul and Ananias in Acts 9 have been directed to meet by The Holy Spirit, in corroborating the event on the road to Damascus. The others with Paul were also witnesses to what they heard.

With reference to my post #87, I believe you do NOT possess the authority to discount portions of an authorised Book of the Apostles, by the original 72 Apostles who sanctioned it as a controlled document to be authorised by the whole Church (singular), within the 1st Century context.

So again let me ask you, where do you get your authority to discount portions of the Book of Acts?

Also take heed, that to claim Paul is a liar and did not meet Jesus on the road to Damascus is also making the claim that the disciple Ananais had lied, the Apostles had lied in authorising the book, most importantly the Lord lied when saying....

"Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.”

“Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

I am expecting an honest and genuine answer from you in this regard. Thankyou!

I don't discount the general report of Saul's conversion experience in Acts 9:1-19 , I maintain that Jesus didn't return to earth in bodily form (the second coming) to meet with Saul. Saul has some sort of vision, a spiritual experience. At some point Saul, now Paul, began to teach his version of the gospel about Jesus to the Gentile world; Christ and him crucified. He had already been hearing the new, post cross gospel being preached.

 

[Colter]

@Colter I as a second witness ask you the same question as @Doug Melven below.....

I believe that Paul had a sincere, spiritual conversion experience like millions of believers have had with multiple and diverse accounts. From there he began to preach and expand on the gospel about Jesus. "He who is not against us is with us".


Considering that the so called "Gentile world" first herd about Jesus through Paul & company, it's not surprising that they held Paul in high regard. After Paul died his followers elevated even his simple letters of correspondence to others as "The Word of God", equal to Jesus! Much of the NT is Jesus according to Paul's experience with him and his beliefs about him.

 

[RDKirk]

John 15
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

This is one example. Jesus says we are to keep his commandments to be saved, yet people read Paul and believe that they don't have to keep Jesus commandments for salvation.

Another example is this:

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Jesus says we have to obey him to have eternal life, but many people think all you have to do is trust in Jesus for salvation. That's how wrong it can get starting from Paul instead of Jesus.

As I said before, I suspect that's your interpretation of what "many people" say.

And it may be your interpretation of "Jesus commandments" as well.

 

[Halbhh]

John 15
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

This is one example. Jesus says we are to keep his commandments to be saved, yet people read Paul and believe that they don't have to keep Jesus commandments for salvation.

Another example is this:

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Jesus says we have to obey him to have eternal life, but many people think all you have to do is trust in Jesus for salvation. That's how wrong it can get starting from Paul instead of Jesus.

So true.

But the way people get the wrong idea using Paul -- to think they don't have to do any commandments -- is by carefully isolating verses and passages away from the remainder of what Paul writes, and ignoring (or never reading) the rest of what Paul writes, so that they don't read fully Romans chapter 8, Romans chapter 13, Galatians chapters 5 and 6, and on and on.

In short, they haven't read Paul's epistles fully enough to accurately know what Paul said.

In a nutshell, it's as if they have Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 and 9, but have somehow closed their eyes to the next verse, verse 10.

 

[RDKirk]

So true.

But the way people get the wrong idea using Paul -- to think they don't have to do any commandments -- is by carefully isolating verses and passages away from the remainder of what Paul writes, and ignoring (or never reading) the rest of what Paul writes, so that they don't read fully Romans chapter 8, Romans chapter 13, Galatians chapters 5 and 6, and on and on.

In short, they haven't read Paul's epistles fully enough to accurately know what Paul said.

In a nutshell, it's as if they have Ephesians chapter 2 verses 8 and 9, but have somehow closed their eyes to the next verse, verse 10.

Either that or the people who accuse them of thinking they don't have to do any commandments are including "every jot and tittle" of the Mosaic Law into "commandments of Jesus."

 

[Halbhh]

Either that or the people who accuse them of thinking they don't have to do any commandments are including "every jot and tittle" of the Mosaic Law into "commandments of Jesus."

I like Paul's wording in Romans 13. Love fulfills all the essential law. The debt we owe as Paul wrote. This is how Paul echoes Christ's new commandment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yahweh chose His messenger the Apostle Paul to deliver the truth as planned before the world was even created. Yahshua trained and taught the Apostle Paul, and nothing in his word contradicts anything in Yahweh's Word or Plan or Purpose.

A lot of so-called 'Christendom' ignores Yahweh, Jesus, the Apostles, the Apostle Paul,

differently in various degrees according as Yahweh permitted them to,

but all are one in Christ Jesus, in perfect harmony with all His orchestrated wondrous salvation in Jesus.......

Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?

Whoever rejects Jesus or Paul, rejects the Father.
Whoever rejects Paul, has already rejected Jesus.

 

[Doug Melven]

John 15
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."

This is one example. Jesus says we are to keep his commandments to be saved, yet people read Paul and believe that they don't have to keep Jesus commandments for salvation.

Another example is this:

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Luke 6
46 “Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 Everyone who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built. 49 But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”

Jesus says we have to obey him to have eternal life, but many people think all you have to do is trust in Jesus for salvation. That's how wrong it can get starting from Paul instead of Jesus.

Jesus is not talking about salvation, He is talking about bearing fruit. Which Paul also said we need the Spirit for. No contradictions, just people misunderstanding what Jesus was saying.
Jesus also said those who believe in Him have passed from death to life and are born-again ans will never perish.

Many people get discipleship and salvation mixed up.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The false doctrine of the inspiration of scripture is man made, it was invented by holy men in order to maintain control of people.

Then how can you trust the men who wrote the gospels that that was even what Jesus did? Your entire premise of follow Jesus falls flat if the words of scripture are not God inspired.

So how do you even know who Jesus was or what He said or did?

That’s the problem with those who say God’s Word is not from God. Then you have to throw it all out or explain why you believe the Gospels but not the rest

 

[zoidar]

Jesus is not talking about salvation, He is talking about bearing fruit. Which Paul also said we need the Spirit for. No contradictions, just people misunderstanding what Jesus was saying.
Jesus also said those who believe in Him have passed from death to life and are born-again ans will never perish.

Many people get discipleship and salvation mixed up.

The error with your reasoning is that Jesus says that if you don't bear fruit you will be cut off the vine... So unless you believe that you can be saved without being attached to the vine, you should agree with what I'm saying.

If you are a disciple you are saved, if you aren't a disciple you aren't saved. It's pretty obvious.

Luke 13
6 And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. 7 And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ 8 And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; 9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

 

[Miracle James]

It would be significantly different, yes. Especially the Protestant tradition which leans so heavily on Paul's writings. In fact I don't even think it's controversial to say that the Reformation would have never happened without Paul.



Which Churches never heard of Paul? Why would you say that Paul never taught anything any of the other apostles didn't teach? I just see no evidence for such a claim. We have only a fraction of the writings from other apostles that we have from Paul, and the topics, context, and substance covered are vastly different. There are all sorts of things in Paul's writings that aren't in the writings of the other apostles.

Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

Could Christianity survive without his teachings?

I am starting to wonder if we should hold onto the words of Jesus in the NT more than those of Paul. It seems to me that Paul has taken over the NT. Rightly or wrongly so?

Paul is a teacher. Not just a disciple. Sometimes when I read the Bible, I find joy in reading Paul's letter than even Jesus' teaching. (Sincerely).
Let's be truthful here, the God inspired word of God needs people to pass it across and Paul was a valued asset.
But it never meant that no other person could do it so perfectly

 

[SolomonVII]

Counterfactuals are interesting, but there is no way to know what would be the case without St Paul. Suffice to say that the future or Christianity was with the Gentiles and not the Jews, and this was something that Paul even lamented about in the first few decades after the Resurrection. Through their conflicts with St Paul, and the visions associated with that controversy, apostles like St Peter came around to the idea that the world divided into Jews and gentiles no longer existed. St Paul was a leader in that revelation.

There was one point where Jesus pondered whether or not people would even recognize him at his Second Coming. If people do recognize him then, I think it would have a lot to do with the fact that St Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, met Jesus that fateful day on the road to Damascus.
The writings of St Paul are the context through which we essentially have come to understand the significance of the Resurrection. There were a lot of directions that Christianity could have gone, and did go, in the first few centuries after the crucifixion. Some roads to led to versions of eastern and pagan mysticism; others to Judaist and hence the Islamic legalistic interpretations that still very much play a role in the world today. Really, Islam is more like the ancient legalism of the Pharisees than Judaism is today, because the personalized spiritual relationship developed as developed through Paulian Christianity has influenced the direction that Judaism in the West has taken over the millennia.
Given that is what the world is like today, it is not unrealistic to think that without St Paul, Christianity would be very similar to Islam today. A major reason that Christianity is not like that is because of the influence that St Paul had on the development of Christianity.

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Deleted

 

[Lost4words]

Counterfactuals are interesting, but there is no way to know what would be the case without St Paul. Suffice to say that the future or Christianity was with the Gentiles and not the Jews, and this was something that Paul even lamented about in the first few decades after the Resurrection. Through their conflicts with St Paul, and the visions associated with that controversy, apostles like St Peter came around to the idea that the world divided into Jews and gentiles no longer existed. St Paul was a leader in that revelation.

There was one point where Jesus pondered whether or not people would even recognize him at his Second Coming. If people do recognize him then, I think it would have a lot to do with the fact that St Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, met Jesus that fateful day on the road to Damascus.
The writings of St Paul are the context through which we essentially have come to understand the significance of the Resurrection. There were a lot of directions that Christianity could have gone, and did go, in the first few centuries after the crucifixion. Some roads to led to versions of eastern and pagan mysticism; others to Judaist and hence the Islamic legalistic interpretations that still very much play a role in the world today. Really, Islam is more like the ancient legalism of the Pharisees than Judaism is today, because the personalized spiritual relationship developed as developed through Paulian Christianity has influenced the direction that Judaism in the West has taken over the millennia.
Given that is what the world is like today, it is not unrealistic to think that without St Paul, Christianity would be very similar to Islam today. A major reason that Christianity is not like that is because of the influence that St Paul had on the development of Christianity.

Nice post.