Would Christianity be different without St Paul?

[Lost4words]

I guess that when we think of Apostle, we think of those that were around Jesus before He was crucified.

Could Jesus make someone an Apostle these days?

 

[RDKirk]

If so why do many protestants today believe they don't have to obey Christ to be saved?

I think that's your interpretation of what they believe.

 

[Colter]

In the original gospel Jesus lived for the cause of salvation, in the later gospel he died for the cause of sin.

Its not that the teachings of Jesus would need to be updated, its mans understanding of them. As it were he left a "bridge" from an age of ignorance and blood sacrifices to an age of spiritual enlightenment.

 

[RDKirk]

Paul's teachings certainly not contradict Jesus's. The problem is when people use Paul's teachings to understand Christ's, instead of the other way around.

That is, in fact, exactly what the Holy Spirit does through Paul.

Romans, for instance, explains how Jesus' healing of the Syrophoenician Woman is foreshadowed in the Torah.

 

[RDKirk]

Reciting a few verses here that I believe hold context to this thread: Matthew 7:15-20, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6, and finally Revelation 22:18-19
They would have to throw out the Bible as a whole, if that's the case.

God indeed gave Paul a mission, why would God allow this to be in His word if it were not true? To me, it seems to question the very mission Jesus had on this earth and that He hand picked His disciples/apostles.

I just find it very .... interesting I guess that some people believe Paul was never an Apostle/disciple of Jesus.

They also seem to think none of the Apostles knew Paul or that nobody who knew the Apostles knew Paul.

 

[Rubiks]

Reciting a few verses here that I believe hold context to this thread: Matthew 7:15-20, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6, and finally Revelation 22:18-19
They would have to throw out the Bible as a whole, if that's the case.

God indeed gave Paul a mission, why would God allow this to be in His word if it were not true? To me, it seems to question the very mission Jesus had on this earth and that He hand picked His disciples/apostles.

I just find it very .... interesting I guess that some people believe Paul was never an Apostle/disciple of Jesus.

...because they don't believe that Paul's writings are the word of God

 

[The Times]

What proof do we have that Jesus did talk to Paul on the road to Damascus?

Acts 9 is the chronology of events of the chronological book of Acts of the Apostles.

Jesus had appointed 72 Apostles to be the Community of the Acts of the Apostles, through his Eastern Orthodox Church in Asia Minor (Turkey). Please refer to the Revelation of Jesus that Jesus gave onto John the Apostle.

It is documented in Acts that Jesus sent him to a disciple's house to be healed and as a second witness to his conversion. So the trail of witnesses that led to his conversion and the documented approval of the book of Acts to include Paul's works is further evidence that the road to Damascus was a genuine conversion that cannot be disputed.

Since the 72 Apostles are mentioned in Luke and Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles, then the controlled document of scripture were corroborated by many Apostles and Disciples.

 

[Colter]

...because they don't believe that Paul's writings are the word of God

That's correct, Paul isn't God. Paul's words are not equal to Jesus' words.

 

[RDKirk]

That's correct, Paul isn't God. Paul's words are not equal to Jesus' words.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the inspiration for every word of scripture.

Jesus Himself did not write any of it. ALL of it came to the minds of the persons who wrote it down by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever is testified as the "words of Jesus" is what the Holy Spirit brought to their minds to write. We don't know the word of Jesus. You don't know the word of Jesus.

All you know is what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write as the word of Jesus. You don't know anything else but that.

And the same Holy Spirit inspired what Paul wrote as well.

 

[Danielwright2311]

The problem with that approach is that there were many things that Jesus only told to His disciples. Jesus taught them things He didn’t teach the masses and they took all of this with them after His death to continue on.

For instance, Jesus didn’t publicly teach about the Holy Spirit coming, yet how foundational is this one thing to our faith.

God Himself sealing us with Himself.

But Jesus said he will send the spirit to us, he said this a couple times, and we all know it as we read it and it is worldly knowledge now.

So there is no problem with anything.

 

[Danielwright2311]

I think a more modern translation of this word "followers" is imitator, but you can see what Paul means when he talks about the Christian walk.

1Cor. 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

1Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Phil. 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Also, a surprising statement in Romans after Paul compares the Jew and the Gentile.

Rom. 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Its easy to say your a follower of Christ, but he is still just a faulty man with his own interpretations.

This is why we need to follow only Jesus my friend, he is the way, the truth and the light.

Jesus gave us all the information we need, he gave us everything, all truth, Jesus is the only one we should follow.

 

[hedrick]

For instance, Jesus didn’t publicly teach about the Holy Spirit coming, yet how foundational is this one thing to our faith.

Not in the sense of Pentecost or John, but you can find a couple of indications in Luke:

Luke 3:16: Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 11:13: the Father will give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks
Luke 12:12: when questioned, the Holy Spirit will tell us what to say

The last quotation seems to imply that the Holy Spirit is with all Christians.

 

[RDKirk]

Not in the sense of Pentecost or John, but you can find a couple of indications in Luke:

Luke 3:16: Jesus will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 11:13: the Father will give the Holy Spirit to anyone who asks
Luke 12:12: when questioned, the Holy Spirit will tell us what to say

The last quotation seems to imply that the Holy Spirit is with all Christians.

Yeah, but Luke was Paul's disciple, and we don't trust Paul, remember? How can Luke be any more trustworthy than Paul? Right?

 

[Halbhh]

Again, the Holy Spirit is the inspiration for every word of scripture.

Jesus Himself did not write any of it. ALL of it came to the minds of the persons who wrote it down by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever is testified as the "words of Jesus" is what the Holy Spirit brought to their minds to write. We don't know the word of Jesus. You don't know the word of Jesus.

All you know is what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write as the word of Jesus. You don't know anything else but that.

And the same Holy Spirit inspired what Paul wrote as well.

It's thought the Gospel of Mark was written down in 66-70AD, around 35 years after Christ, meaning many of those young when hearing Christ would still be alive. Ergo, living eye witness telling for years what they'd heard first hand, some still around as Mark was written down.

 

[hedrick]

Yeah, but Luke was Paul's disciple, and we don't trust Paul, remember? How can Luke be any more trustworthy than Paul? Right?

Interesting. But
* Luke 3:16 = Mark 1:8
* Luke 11:13. I'll give you that. The version in Matthew doesn't have the Holy Spirit, and the commentary I just checked with thinks it's Luke's interpretation of the "good things." Personally I suspect the Lukan version is original. "good things" seems kind of a weak conclusion to this.
* Luke 12:12. Mark 13:11 says the same thing, though Luke 12:12 is probably from Q, i.e. independent of Mark. So we've actually got a 4th passage (or 3rd if you don't count Luke 11:13).

 

[Colter]

Again, the Holy Spirit is the inspiration for every word of scripture.

Jesus Himself did not write any of it. ALL of it came to the minds of the persons who wrote it down by the Holy Spirit.

Whatever is testified as the "words of Jesus" is what the Holy Spirit brought to their minds to write. We don't know the word of Jesus. You don't know the word of Jesus.

All you know is what the Holy Spirit inspired men to write as the word of Jesus. You don't know anything else but that.

And the same Holy Spirit inspired what Paul wrote as well.

The false doctrine of the inspiration of scripture is man made, it was invented by holy men in order to maintain control of people.


As for Paul Jesus had already returned to heaven. While he may have had a profound spiritual experience, he didn't meet personally with Jesus.

 

[The Times]

As for Paul Jesus had already returned to heaven. While he may have had a profound spiritual experience, he didn't meet personally with Jesus.

How would you qualify "meet"?

Was the post resurrection witnessing by the 500 qualify as "meet" to you?

 

[Colter]

How would you qualify "meet"?

Was the post resurrection witnessing by the 500 qualify as "meet" to you?

The resurrected Jesus appeared a number of times before ascending to heaven. Paul's conversion took place after Jesus returned to heaven. Millions have had conversion experiences, myself included.

 

[Doug Melven]

Paul's teachings certainly not contradict Jesus's. The problem is when people use Paul's teachings to understand Christ's, instead of the other way around.

Could you give some examples of this?

The false doctrine of the inspiration of scripture is man made, it was invented by holy men in order to maintain control of people.


As for Paul Jesus had already returned to heaven. While he may have had a profound spiritual experience, he didn't meet personally with Jesus.

2 Peter 1:19-21 says
1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts
1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Peter was saying that the Scriptures were more reliable than him hearing a voice from Heaven. Matthew 17

Do you believe Paul was a liar? He said Christ appeared to him, just as He did to the other Apostles.
1 Corinthians 15:6-8

 

[The Times]

The resurrected Jesus appeared a number of times before ascending to heaven. Paul's conversion took place after Jesus returned to heaven. Millions have had conversion experiences, myself included.

With reference to my post #97, I gather from your above reply that the 500 did meet the Lord, according to your definition of "meet", however Paul did not meet the Lord, but had a conversion experience like yourself, is that right?