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Would Calvin be banned from CF

Would he?

  • Yes he would

  • No he would not

  • I am not sure


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BBAS 64

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Good Day, All

While reading some quotes from Calvin it occured to me that Calvin did not pull any punches with reguard to position of the RCC. So the question would he be banned from posting here at CF?

John Calvin - {Habakkuk 2:4:} They go astray still more grievously as to the remission of sins; for as it is well known, they obtrude their own satisfactions, and thus seek to expiate the sins of men by their own merits, as though the sacrifice of Christ was not sufficient for that purpose. Hence it is that they will not allow that we are gratuitously justified by faith; for they cannot be brought to acknowledge a free remission of sins; and except the remission of sins be gratuitous, we must confess that righteousness is not by faith alone, but also by merits. But the whole Scripture proves that expiation is nowhere else to be sought, except through the sacrifice of Christ alone. This error, then, of the Papists is extremely gross and false. They further err in pleading for the merits of works; for they boast of their own inventions, the works of supererogation, or as they call them, satisfactions. And these meritorious works, under the Papacy, are gross errors and worthless superstitions, and yet they toil in them and lacerate themselves, nay, they almost wear out themselves. If they mutter many short prayers, if they run to altars and to various churches, if they buy masses, in a word, if they accumulate all these fictitious acts of worship, they think that they merit righteousness before God. Thus they forget their own saying, that righteousness is by covenant; for if it be by covenant, it is certain that God does not promise it to fictitious works, which men of themselves invent and contrive. It then follows, that what men bring to God, devised by themselves, cannot do anything towards the attainment of righteousness.
Calvin: It is hence obvious to conclude, that under the Papacy the light of the Gospel is extinct, for miserable men are bidden to doubt whether God is propitious to them or is angry with them. They indeed say that God is to be sought; but the way by which it is possible to come to him is not pointed out, and the gate is barred by which alone men can enter. They confess in words that Christ is a Mediator, but in reality they make the power of his priesthood of none effect, and deprive him of his honor.

For we must hold this principle, — that Christ is not really known as a Mediator except all doubt as to our access to God is removed; otherwise the conclusion here drawn would not stand, “We have a high priest Who is willing to help us; therefore we may come bold and without any hesitation to the throne of grace.” And were we indeed fully persuaded that Christ is of his own accord stretching forth his hand to us, who of us would not come in perfect confidence? It is then true what I said, that its power is taken away from Christ’s priesthood whenever men have doubts, and are anxiously seeking for mediators, as though that one were not sufficient, in whose patronage all they who really trust, as the Apostle here directs them, have the assurance that their prayers are heard. Calvin’s Commentaries, Vol. 22, Commentary on Hebrews 4:16, p. 110.
What do you think?

Peace to u,

Bill
 
It doesn't look like he understood what the Catholic Church teaches. I don't think anyone is banned for misunderstanding.

This guy would be banned, in regard to his comments about other protestants:

C. Matthew McMahon said:
A Puritan's Mind
"Arminianism is not something hidden under a stone, but lives in full view, and in direct opposition, to the Gospel. It is a deceiving doctrine of demons wrought up from the pit of hell, where, in the consummation of the age, it will be cast for all eternity with the devil that spawned it and the false teachers who propagated it."

I didn't vote, since I didn't know if you wanted non-Calvinists to vote or not.
 
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Miss Shelby

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cygnusx1 said:
Seeing as he was a catholic like Luther I find your (bigsierra) comment staggering.......:doh:
Heeellllooooo cygnus? How ya doing?

Calvin was indeed a Catholic, until he removed himself from the authority of the Church. He was one of the founders of Protestantism.

Michelle
 
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BronxBriar

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Miss Shelby said:
Heeellllooooo cygnus? How ya doing?

Calvin was indeed a Catholic, until he removed himself from the authority of the Church. He was one of the founders of Protestantism.

Michelle
Not only was he catholic, he was (like Luther) a Roman Catholic priest. So I would say he knew enough about the church he was part of. I would add that they, like many of us, knew quite enough to be able to "liberate" themselves from papal authority.
 
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Miss Shelby

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BronxBriar said:
Not only was he catholic, he was (like Luther) a Roman Catholic priest. So I would say he knew enough about the church he was part of. I would add that they, like many of us, knew quite enough to be able to "liberate" themselves from papal authority.
Actually, Luther was a monk.

And beyond that I made no comment of their knowledge or anything. I just wanted to comment to cygnus, because I like him, he and I are sort of 'buds'. Certainly didn't mean to offend by posting here.

Michelle
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Calvin was not only a Catholic, he also trained for the priesthood. All The Reformers were Catholics and most were ministers trained by and ordained in the Catholic Church. I think they understood late medieval Church pretty well.

This time was also one the lowest points in the history of the Papacy. They went from the Babylonian Captivity of the Church, the Great Schism which had two then three popes, to corrupt Popes like Alexander VI (the Borgia Pope), Leo X etc...

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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He is on the border. A lot of it has to do with tone. He is saying things that Catholics would obviously disagree with, but it would seem he is staying within the boundries of the allowed on CF. He does use some provocation language such "worthless superstitions." "the light of the Gospel is extinct" might fall outside the allowable terminology. I guess we will have to see what rnmomof7 or Gabriel say. It will be their call. I wouldn't report that post.

Examples of what is not allowed, and what is allowed:

Not allowed: "The Pope is the Anti-Christ"
Allowed: "The Pope has too much power" or "The Bible did not establish the papacy" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "The Catholic church is a cult"
Allowed: "The Catholic church has errors in some doctrines" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "The Roman Catholic Church is the harlot of Babylon"
Allowed: "The Catholic church may have a particular role to play in the endtimes" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "All Catholics go to hell"
Allowed: "Some Catholics may not be saved because they have wrong beliefs" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "Catholics worship idols" - this is because they don't worship these idols (at least they are not meant to)
Allowed: "Catholics have images in their church and the Bible does not support this" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "Catholics pray to demons when they pray to saints"
Allowed: "Praying to saints is not in the Bible" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Allowed: "There is no such thing as purgatory" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Allowed: "Catholics are preoccupied with visions of Mary" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "Speaking in tongues is demonic"
Allowed: "Speaking in tongues is being abused in some churches" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "Charismatic Christians are not saved"
Allowed: "The charismatic movement have gone too far in some cases" - as long as scripture a nd evidence is posted to argue this.

Not allowed: "Word of Faith preachers are false prophets"
Allowed: "The Word of Faith movement have gone too far in certain instances" - as long as scripture and evidence is posted to argue this.
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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As to Calvin's language, that is the way everyone wrote back then. Calvin is actually one of the more subdued religious polemicists of the day. They all called a spade a spade (some would refer to a spade as a "damned shovel" -- I stole that from RC Sproul Sr.)

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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HiredGoon

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One thing to remember is that we cannot judge the past by modern standards, this is one of the basic rules of the historian. Calvin was in a completely different time and place than 21st century CF. The writings of many of the people engaged in the religious debates of the 16th and 17th centuries would shock most christians today. We live in a post-Victorian era where our language as christians has been thoroughly "cleaned up" as it were. Two guys I'm sure would be banned from CF would be Martin Luther and Thomas More.

"The world is an a**hole, and I am it's ripe sh*t." - Martin Luther

"Since he [Luther] has written that he already has a prior right to bespatter and besmirch the royal crown with sh*t will we not have the posterior right to proclaim the besh*tted tongue on this practitioner of posterioristics most fit to lick with his anterior the very posterior of a p*ssing she-mule." - Thomas More

Calvin was quite mild compared to these two.
 
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Ebb

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I think all of the Reformers made direct comments on the papacy that would be deleted here. That said, since their direct comments are so well known where they don't have to be repeated, then just the fact that we are still Protestants should be all we need to say in that regard. And we Protestants are still allowed at CF ;)
 
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cygnusx1

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Miss Shelby said:
Heeellllooooo cygnus? How ya doing?

Calvin was indeed a Catholic, until he removed himself from the authority of the Church. He was one of the founders of Protestantism.

Michelle
Fine thankyou Michelle , how are You ?
Hope you are well ;)

I haven't heared from FOC for a bit when is he due back ?
 
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Miss Shelby

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cygnusx1 said:
Fine thankyou Michelle , how are You ?
Hope you are well ;)

I haven't heared from FOC for a bit when is he due back ?
Is that Follower of Christ? I dunno, haven't been hangin in the GA part of town lately. Doing good... lots of idol woship...meatless keggers..that sort of thing... ;)

You know I am kidding. ^_^

Michelle
 
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BBAS 64

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Irishcat922 said:
Semper Reformanda > Reformed?

I have a question, Why, if this is a reformed message board, all the R.C. input? Initially yes the reformers were called reformers because the were trying to bring reformation to the established church i.e Roman Catholicism, but when they realised the R.C. was unreformable they left. Nothing has changed the R.C. is still unreformable it is for all practical purposes apostate. That does not mean that all of it's members are lost, a person can be a good Christian and still be in the R.C., but a person cannot be a good R.C. and be a real Christian. I hope everyone on this board understands what it means to be reformed. It seems many are not completely informed.
The doctrines of the reformation speak for themselves, they are a slap in the face to Roman Catholicism.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean1 thing; and I will receive you,

Good Day, Irishcat

You hit that right out of the park! :thumbsup:

For His Glory Alone!

Bill
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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Actually, The Roman Catholic Church did much to clean up the ethical and moral corruption that existed prior to the Reformation. Those actions (plus more) are known as the Counter-Reformation.

On matters of Doctrine I think they made several errors a test of orthodoxy. At the Council of Trent they made orthodoxy far more narrow than it had been during much of the Middle Ages. If their anathemas were retroactive then some of the ancient saints are anathematised along with the contemporary Protestants.

Protestants too defines orthodoxy and we too made orthodoxy very narrow.

I believe there are Christians in all true Churches. I believe all that hold to the Apostles and Nicene Creeds fit the definition of "true Church." This is why we accept the baptisms of Roman Catholics, Orthodox, Baptist etc... (no J.W.’s, Mormons or other Christ denying, heretical groups).

Coram Deo,
Kenith
 
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