Would an SOP for this forum be helpful?

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Maybe one which encourages the sharing of ideas, support, encouragement for ministry, and says that this forum is not the place to debate or criticise models of ministry which are not one's own?
 

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,520
9,014
Florida
✟325,141.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Maybe one which encourages the sharing of ideas, support, encouragement for ministry, and says that this forum is not the place to debate or criticise models of ministry which are not one's own?

You're funny. :)
 
Upvote 0

carp614

Active Member
Apr 21, 2016
321
329
47
Home
✟29,620.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure.
I certainly see value in a statement of purpose encouraging the sharing of ideas, support, encouragement for ministry.

While I think I understand your reasoning behind the last part, people are just challenging sometimes, I'm not sure I agree that this shouldn't be a forum wherein we can debate different models of ministry. Yes, I know you said criticize, but I'm concerned such a prohibition would end up coming across as a proverbial wet blanket, leaving me hesitant to ask questions about traditions I don't understand and/or have no experience with for fear of being accused of criticizing.
 
Upvote 0

carp614

Active Member
Apr 21, 2016
321
329
47
Home
✟29,620.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In situations like this, I always think of a rather crude saying an old sailor told me that has turned out to be true in my experience. Basically, behind every law/rule lies some dummy who ruined it for the rest of us. Is this one of those?

If the true purpose is to make a statement about what shouldn't happen, then I'm not sure it's worth the work. Will making such a statement actually reduce the incidences of direct attacks? Will a potential offender stop, read the statement of purpose, and actually change course as a result? I must admit I have my doubts.

I think I'm not getting this across very well. I'm sorry. Here: I believe such a statement is unnecessary because my experience in this particular forum has been very positive. Very positive indeed...
 
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Hmm.

I'd like this forum to be more active, with those of us in ministry sharing our challenges, struggles, ideas, mutual encouragement, etc. That doesn't happen much.

For example, when I look at the first page of this forum, most of the threads are started by people not in ministry with questions about ministry; and while those are good threads and I don't object to them, on the whole, I feel like there's something I'd like to see grow because it doesn't really exist yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

carp614

Active Member
Apr 21, 2016
321
329
47
Home
✟29,620.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I see, so the overall objective is to encourage more activity, more collaboration among professional colleagues.
Perhaps a closed forum for that purpose would be better utilized by professionals? Members only sign, special handshake...sounds fun!
Please leave this one open though. I like it here.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: archer75
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well, that would be one objective. Encourage the positive as well as discourage the negative.

I don't know that I want another hidden forum, but hey - it'd be good to see others chime in too.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,186
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I'm not concerned about questions or the like. I'm more concerned about direct attacks on "hirelings" and that sort of carry-on.

I think it was Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapel who got that snowball rolling. He was an amusing guy; in rejecting traditional Congregational polity in favor of what he called “The Moses Model” he inadvertantly reinvented Episcopal polity. But he was very good at congregational growth.

My ministry is a traditional, liturgical church plant in Las Vegas that will probably affiliate with the CCCC - I used to be with the United Church of Christ (the traditional Reformed and Welcoming group), but I no longer feel at home there. I am also into the ancient-future concept of worship.

Since it is a church plant, no one can accuse me of being a “hireling” at present, but I agree with you, in that when I was an assistant minister, I would have taken offense at being called a hireling. Most presbyters are paid, as are some deacons (although I don’t know where we would be without volunteer permanent deacons).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I think it was Chuck Smith of the Calvary Chapel who got that snowball rolling.

It does seem to be a particularly American thing. I don't come across it in real life, only online in places where there is a high proportion of Americans.

My ministry is a traditional, liturgical church plant in Las Vegas that will probably affiliate with the CCCC - I used to be with the United Church of Christ (the traditional Reformed and Welcoming group), but I no longer feel at home there. I am also into the ancient-future concept of worship.

CCCC? (Again, sorry, not American, so not recognising the acronym). Your church plant sounds interesting; I shall be keen to hear more about how it goes!

Since it is a church plant, no one can accuse me of being a “hireling” at present, but I agree with you, in that when I was an assistant minister, I would have taken offense at being called a hireling. Most presbyters are paid, as are some deacons (although I don’t know where we would be without volunteer permanent deacons).

I find that the hireling accusation either seems to suggest that we're just in it for the money (which is laughable, I could have made much more money in the career I left for ministry), or that our ministry is somehow less authentically offered because we're paid.

I also find it frustrating that people who've never actually worked in ministry don't seem to have any sort of conception of the reality of the role, or how feasible it would be to earn an income in some other way at the same time. People are quick to expect the world of their ministers, but slow to realise what it takes to actually meet those expectations...

Distinctive deacons are not terribly common in my context, and most of them work in chaplaincy type roles rather than in parishes, but you're right, they're absolutely wonderful for the church!
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,186
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
It does seem to be a particularly American thing. I don't come across it in real life, only online in places where there is a high proportion of Americans.

Sorry for my late reply to this thread Paidiske. There are actually Calvary Chapels in Europe, and the “Mosss Model” is pretty standard among non-denoms. It should be noted that these pastors have their cake and eat too, in that they denounce “hirelings” while making a substantial amount from mandatory tithing, etc. Especially prosperity Gospel people like Joel Osteen. I regard the Prosperity Gospel as preached by people like Creflo Dollar to be almost an exact definition of Galatians 1:8.

CCCC? (Again, sorry, not American, so not recognising the acronym). Your church plant sounds interesting; I shall be keen to hear more about how it goes!

The Conservative Congregational Christian Conference. Our main congregational church, the United Church of Christ, is not doing too well, hence my desire to work for a more dynamic, Gospel-centric entity.

I find that the hireling accusation either seems to suggest that we're just in it for the money (which is laughable, I could have made much more money in the career I left for ministry), or that our ministry is somehow less authentically offered because we're paid.

Indeed, the only people making any money from ministry are not “hirelings” like us but pastors of a certain type of megachurch, especially the Prosperity Gospel set. No one with a vocation to the Anglican / Traditional Protestant / Roman Catholic / Orthodox continuum of churches is driven by the money, because there just isn’t any. The only perks of the job tend to be good healthcare and retirement benefits, in the US, in some denominations, because certain denominations like the Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists and SDAs built a large network of hospitals and medical clinics. On the other hand, Orthodox clergy do not benefit from this, as there is a lack of large scale Orthodox health facilities in the US, and many Orthodox priests work until they die. Catholic priests tend to have mandatory retirement, except they keep on working and serving mass, because their liturgical obligations remain.

I also find it frustrating that people who've never actually worked in ministry don't seem to have any sort of conception of the reality of the role, or how feasible it would be to earn an income in some other way at the same time. People are quick to expect the world of their ministers, but slow to realise what it takes to actually meet those expectations...

Indeed. This is a very common problem in virtually every church.

Distinctive deacons are not terribly common in my context, and most of them work in chaplaincy type roles rather than in parishes, but you're right, they're absolutely wonderful for the church!

I am a huge supporter of the diaconate both for liturgical and pastoral care purposes. Now in some liturgical churches (mainly Orthodox), deacons are almost purely liturgical in their function, interestingly.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,186
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
"the only people making any money from ministry are not “hirelings” like us”

I suppose I’m not understanding the definition of hirelings :sigh:

The average pastor, elder or priest in a traditional Protestant denomination like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodist, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is proably making $25,000 - $35,000 before taxes, in the US. A non-denominational megachurch pastor, who has no denominational oversight, can make millions.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,186
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
By the way, neither @Paidiske nor I are complaining about our low pay; it is a form of simony to seek to acquire an ecclesiastical office for pecuniary benefit (or more specifically, to pay a bishop or other ecclesiastical figure for ordination). As in Simon Magus. We don’t want to be that guy.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Radagast
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jahel

returned to old acct
Nov 18, 2019
616
248
Vancouver
✟26,770.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The average pastor, elder or priest in a traditional Protestant denomination like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodist, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is proably making $25,000 - $35,000 before taxes, in the US. A non-denominational megachurch pastor, who has no denominational oversight, can make millions.
That’s about 50 G Canadian a yr starters. 4-5 G’s a month. Sorry not getting the Op’s complaint on the Sop.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,186
5,708
49
The Wild West
✟475,636.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That’s about 50 G Canadian a yr starters. 4-5 G’s a month. Sorry not getting the Op’s complaint on the Sop.

That’s merely an average, a median, not a mode, taking into account the higher-paid older clergy of larger churches and the lesser-paid clergy of smaller rural churches, missions, or churches in a state of decline. A pastor fresh out of the seminary could probably do better working in retail.
 
Upvote 0

jahel

returned to old acct
Nov 18, 2019
616
248
Vancouver
✟26,770.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That’s merely an average, a median, not a mode, taking into account the higher-paid older clergy of larger churches and the lesser-paid clergy of smaller rural churches, missions, or churches in a state of decline. A pastor fresh out of the seminary could probably do better working in retail.
It’s about thything.
 
Upvote 0

bekkilyn

Contemplative Christian
Site Supporter
Apr 27, 2017
7,612
8,475
USA
✟677,608.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Others
The average pastor, elder or priest in a traditional Protestant denomination like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodist, the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches is proably making $25,000 - $35,000 before taxes, in the US. A non-denominational megachurch pastor, who has no denominational oversight, can make millions.

What many people also don't understand is that clergy and church staff in the U.S. are considered "self-employed" for tax purposes, so will pay federal, state and/or local if applicable AND both the employer and employee shares of self employment taxes and often also pay for their own health, disablity, etc. insurance just like a self-employed person. So that $25,000-$35,000 "salary" stretches even less than if they received the same annual amount while working as an employee at a business.

Oh and since tithing was also mentioned, clergy will often pay 10% of what they are paid back to the church.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,225
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,506,245.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
The only perks of the job tend to be good healthcare and retirement benefits, in the US, in some denominations, because certain denominations like the Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists and SDAs built a large network of hospitals and medical clinics.

I'd say the big perk in the way we do things here is being housed. Yes, my stipend is modest, but I'm not paying rent or a mortgage out of it. (We do, in fact, have a mortgage on a place we intend to live in when I retire; but since we don't currently live in it, we rent it out, and the rental income pays the mortgage; which couldn't happen if the church didn't house us).

And not only does that cut out housing expenses, but it also means, because I live on site, I have basically no commute to work; so I'm not wasting hours a week in the car or on public transport, which is not by any means trivial.

By the way, neither @Paidiske nor I are complaining about our low pay; it is a form of simony to seek to acquire an ecclesiastical office for pecuniary benefit (or more specifically, to pay a bishop or other ecclesiastical figure for ordination). As in Simon Magus. We don’t want to be that guy.

No, I'm not complaining. My stipend and package is adequate to allow me to give myself to ministry without needing to spend large amounts of time earning an income elsewhere (which is the point). If anything, I'm complaining about the perception that ministers who do get paid are only in it for the money. Again, if I were motivated by money, I need not have left my previous - potentially much more lucrative - career!

And yes, while I don't practice a strict tithe, giving to the church out of my stipend is a given.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0