Would a Christian considered a Jew?

[Steve Petersen]

Though some may claim to they simply cannot for all the records were destroyed in 70 A. D.

Source?

What about Jews who lived in the Diaspora when the Temple was destroyed? Were their records all destroyed too?

 

[twin1954]

Source?

What about Jews who lived in the Diaspora when the Temple was destroyed? Were their records all destroyed too?

The genealogies were kept by the priests and scribes and were destroyed. They were destroyed because the One for whom they had to be kept appeared at the appointed time and they were no longer needed to show His lineage.

Those who lived in the Diaspora when the Temple was destroyed mingled over time with other tribes and now not one of them can actually trace his lineage.

 

[twin1954]

Since you asked for a source here is a Jewish source:

http://judaism.stackexchange.com/qu...oday-who-can-identify-themselves-as-coming-fr

 

[Dave-W]

The Jewish religion today is not biblical. Judaism cannot exist without the Temple and sacrifices which is why it was destroyed in A.D. 70.

Do you include New Covenant Judaism in that statement?

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I recall that Paul said Gentiles were not required to observe Jewish religious laws and traditions, but Jews should remain observant of these practices.

So if we are spiritual Jews, does that mean we should observe the Torah and practice Jewish customs?

Also, in Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile.

 

[Soyeong]

I recall that Paul said Gentiles were not required to observe Jewish religious laws and traditions, but Jews should remain observant of these practices.

If you make a distinction between Jewish religious laws and traditions and the Law of Moses, then you would be correct that Gentiles are not required to observe Jewish religious laws and traditions. There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, so while we are not required to obey man's laws, we are required to obey God's.

So if we are spiritual Jews, does that mean we should observe the Torah and practice Jewish customs?

Through faith in Messiah we are grafted into God's chosen people, Israel, which is not the same as saying that we have become spiritual Jews. But yes, as part of God's chosen people, we should observe the laws of the Torah that God has given to them, though we are not required to practice Jewish customs.

Also, in Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile.

Paul was combating the idea that certain groups of people had a higher status when it came to being in Messiah, not denying the existence of men, women, free, slaves, Jews, and Gentiles.

 

[twin1954]

If you make a distinction between Jewish religious laws and traditions and the Law of Moses, then you would be correct that Gentiles are not required to observe Jewish religious laws and traditions. There is a theme throughout the Bible that we must obey God rather than man, so while we are not required to obey man's laws, we are required to obey God's.



Through faith in Messiah we are grafted into God's chosen people, Israel, which is not the same as saying that we have become spiritual Jews. But yes, as part of God's chosen people, we should observe the laws of the Torah that God has given to them, though we are not required to practice Jewish customs.



Paul was combating the idea that certain groups of people had a higher status when it came to being in Messiah, not denying the existence of men, women, free, slaves, Jews, and Gentiles.

If I have not asked this before I will ask now; which law have you actually kept? Do you keep a Sabbath?

 

[roamer_1]

In any case, Gentiles are not Israelites. Israelites are descendants of Abraham,Isaac and Jacob, Gentiles are not.

[/quote]

Not exactly.It was a 'mixed multitude' that left Egypt... 'Grafting in' has been happening all the way along.

 

[roamer_1]

We are grafted into the stock of Israel, but we are not Jews.
Just as a branch from a lemon tree that is grafted into an orange tree will still grow lemons; we have different expressions and fruit.

Nope. The wild olive and the cultured olive... The fruit should be the same. Olives are olives.

 

[twin1954]

Not exactly.It was a 'mixed multitude' that left Egypt... 'Grafting in' has been happening all the way along.[/QUOTE]
Bloodlines mean nothing now. They did mean something before Christ came because they were used to confirm His heritage from David. Now they do not matter as God no longer uses the physical nation of Israel as His chosen people. We who believe are the Israel of God, a holy people and a spiritual body.

 

[roamer_1]

Bloodlines mean nothing now. They did mean something before Christ came because they were used to confirm His heritage from David.

But if you study the matter, you will find many that were not bloodline Hebrews in Yeshua's lineage.

Now they do not matter as God no longer uses the physical nation of Israel as His chosen people. We who believe are the Israel of God, a holy people and a spiritual body.

If that is true, then the prophets are made naught, and there is no proof that Yahweh is God through his agents.
I will not believe the prophecy has failed.

 

[Soyeong]

If I have not asked this before I will ask now; which law have you actually kept? Do you keep a Sabbath?

By keeping the law, I am meaning that I practice obedience to it and repentance when I break it, not that I keep it perfectly, so I've kept many of them including the Sabbath. The law was never given for the purpose of trying to keep it perfectly in order to become justified, but rather it was given as instructions for how those who have been justified by faith should act by faith in a way builds a relationship between God and His people. I think many of the laws I am in agreement with most Christians about keeping, but there are some such as keeping God's Sabbath, Festivals, and dietary laws where there is disagreement.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good?

Do you have faith that God's commands are for our own good? If so, then the way to live by faith is to live in obedience to them in accordance with Messiah's example.

In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are told to have a holy conduct and verse 16 says that we are to be holy not because we are under any particular covenant or because we should be like Jews, but because God is holy. Furthermore, verse 16 references Leviticus, where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct that involve keeping His dietary laws and holy days. So we are to do what God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good in the Mosaic law because God is holy, righteous, and good, not because of any covenant. It's about identify with who God is and walking in line with His character, now about identifying with Jews. Anyone who wants to do what is for their own good by acting in line with God's character can do what is holy, righteous, and good by following the Mosaic law regardless of any covenant, but as part of the New Covenant we are instructed to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

 

[twin1954]

By keeping the law, I am meaning that I practice obedience to it and repentance when I break it, not that I keep it perfectly, so I've kept many of them including the Sabbath. The law was never given for the purpose of trying to keep it perfectly in order to become justified, but rather it was given as instructions for how those who have been justified by faith should act by faith in a way builds a relationship between God and His people. I think many of the laws I am in agreement with most Christians about keeping, but there are some such as keeping God's Sabbath, Festivals, and dietary laws where there is disagreement.

Deuteronomy 10:12-13 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments and statutes of the Lord, which I am commanding you today for your good?

Do you have faith that God's commands are for our own good? If so, then the way to live by faith is to live in obedience to them in accordance with Messiah's example.

In 1 Peter 1:14-16, we are told to have a holy conduct and verse 16 says that we are to be holy not because we are under any particular covenant or because we should be like Jews, but because God is holy. Furthermore, verse 16 references Leviticus, where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct that involve keeping His dietary laws and holy days. So we are to do what God has revealed to be holy, righteous, and good in the Mosaic law because God is holy, righteous, and good, not because of any covenant. It's about identify with who God is and walking in line with His character, now about identifying with Jews. Anyone who wants to do what is for their own good by acting in line with God's character can do what is holy, righteous, and good by following the Mosaic law regardless of any covenant, but as part of the New Covenant we are instructed to have such a conduct (1 Peter 1:14-16, 1 John 3:10, Ephesians 2:10).

What you are actually doing is destroying the law by bringing it down to a level that you think you can keep. By doing so you have made the high and holy law to be a set of guidelines. You destroy the holiness of the law, you destroy the purpose of the law which is to drive us to Christ, you destroy the unbending nature of the law.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

What you are actually doing is destroying the law by bringing it down to a level that you think you can keep. By doing so you have made the high and holy law to be a set of guidelines. You destroy the holiness of the law, you destroy the purpose of the law which is to drive us to Christ, you destroy the unbending nature of the law.

If that is the case, why does it say:

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. Galatians 6:7?

There is required on our end obedience. The word clearly shows this.

 

[Soyeong]

What you are actually doing is destroying the law by bringing it down to a level that you think you can keep. By doing so you have made the high and holy law to be a set of guidelines. You destroy the holiness of the law, you destroy the purpose of the law which is to drive us to Christ, you destroy the unbending nature of the law.

Do you believe that God can do anything except cause His people to obey His law? It's not about bringing the law down to our level, but about God bringing us up to His level. The law drives us to Messiah because it is all about him and it is he who can pay our penalty for transgressing it and who can cause us to obey it so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4). God put His Spirit in us to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Our sanctification is about being made like Messiah in his obedience to the law and when He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Messiah, we will be made to be in perfect obedience to it (Philippians 1:6). Our salvation is from sin, so it involves being saved from the penalty of breaking the law, but it also necessarily involves being saved from sinning, or in other words, being trained to obey the things that God has revealed to be godly, holy, righteous, and good, and being trained to avoid doing the things that God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Do you believe that God can do anything except cause His people to obey His law? It's not about bringing the law down to our level, but about God bringing us up to His level. The law drives us to Messiah because it is all about him and it is he who can pay our penalty for transgressing it and who can cause us to obey it so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4). God put His Spirit in us to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Our sanctification is about being made like Messiah in his obedience to the law and when He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Messiah, we will be made to be in perfect obedience to it (Philippians 1:6). Our salvation is from sin, so it involves being saved from the penalty of breaking the law, but it also necessarily involves being saved from sinning, or in other words, being trained to obey the things that God has revealed to be godly, holy, righteous, and good, and being trained to avoid doing the things that God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Great post

 

[crossnote]

After reading through these pages, these questions came to mind...

1. Are we not considered, as the Church, One New man where there is neither Jew nor Gentile?

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

2. What land promises were given to the Church as were given to Abraham and his descendents?

3. What promises of dispersion from any land was given to the Church and what promise of a future regathering as was given to the Jews?

4. Is not a true Jew simply a distinction between a Jew who is one by natural birth only and one who is a natural born Jew but who also has the faith of Abraham...the latter being a true Jew?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

After reading through these pages, these questions came to mind...

1. Are we not considered, as the Church, One New man where there is neither Jew nor Gentile?

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

2. What land promises were given to the Church as were given to Abraham and his descendents?

3. What promises of dispersion from any land was given to the Church and what promise of a future regathering as was given to the Jews?

4. Is not a true Jew simply a distinction between a Jew who is one by natural birth only and one who is a natural born Jew but who also has the faith of Abraham...the latter being a true Jew?

1- One could argue - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17

2- I am led to believe the promises of Abraham were both to the national Jews, as they are to the spiritual Jews, believers of Christ filled with his Spirit.

3- Not sure

4 - That is what this topic is about. I would consider myself a Jew, maybe not a national Jew, but a Spiritual one for sure.

I wouldn't say national Jews are not true Jews. They were/are God's people, God parted the Sea for them, fed them mana from heaven, gave them laws written on stone by his fingers, sent them prophets, send them his own son. Now David, Abraham, Isaac, Ezekial, all the O.T. Prophets were all saved, though many were not spiritual Jews. But inside the National Jews, God did have some people there who were saved and had his Spirit.

 

[twin1954]

After reading through these pages, these questions came to mind...

1. Are we not considered, as the Church, One New man where there is neither Jew nor Gentile?

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (Eph 2:15)

2. What land promises were given to the Church as were given to Abraham and his descendents?

3. What promises of dispersion from any land was given to the Church and what promise of a future regathering as was given to the Jews?

4. Is not a true Jew simply a distinction between a Jew who is one by natural birth only and one who is a natural born Jew but who also has the faith of Abraham...the latter being a true Jew?

Sounds like Dispensationalism.

Bloodlines mean nothing whether it was from Abraham or from Adam when it comes to being a believer. We are all children of Adam, Jews and Gentiles, and now in Christ heirs to the promises.

The land promises given to the Jews were all conditional but the spiritual promises all were made to and through Christ and us in Him.

 

[twin1954]

Do you believe that God can do anything except cause His people to obey His law? It's not about bringing the law down to our level, but about God bringing us up to His level. The law drives us to Messiah because it is all about him and it is he who can pay our penalty for transgressing it and who can cause us to obey it so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:4). God put His Spirit in us to cause us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Our sanctification is about being made like Messiah in his obedience to the law and when He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete it on the day of Messiah, we will be made to be in perfect obedience to it (Philippians 1:6). Our salvation is from sin, so it involves being saved from the penalty of breaking the law, but it also necessarily involves being saved from sinning, or in other words, being trained to obey the things that God has revealed to be godly, holy, righteous, and good, and being trained to avoid doing the things that God has revealed to be ungodly, sinful, and lawless:

Titus 2:11-14 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

What you mistake is living like a true believer and keeping the law. A sheep can do nothing else but act like a sheep and that means it follows its Master. But we do not need a set of rules to follow in order to do so. I will give you an illustration:
Say that I hire a woman to keep and clean my house. I write up a set of rules that I expect her to adhere to in order to do what she was hired to do and put it on the fridge. Now I fall in love with this woman and she with me and we marry. Do you really think that she needs the rules posted on the fridge still? Of course not she does those things now because she loves me and for me to put her under a set of rules in order for her to show her love to me is ridiculous. She no longer follows a set of rules but does what pleases me because now she is free from rules.