Worship

[contango]

No, not without watering down the meaning of the word worship past the point of usefulness.

Do you like chocolate ice cream? Then you worship it like a god!!!!!!!


eudaimonia,

Mark

I'm not sure this is a fair comment, although it may be I missed the point you were trying to make.

I like chocolate ice cream but it's not my reason for living (I prefer strawberry anyway)

If my purpose for living is to attain knowledge, then that desire can eat me alive as there will always be gaps in my knowledge, but that's a different thing to wanting to learn.

If my purpose for living is sex appeal then sooner or later I will grow old and unattractive, but that's a different thing to enjoying a healthy physical relationship with my wife.

If my purpose for living is money and power then I will permanently fear the loss of that money and power, but that's a different thing to going out to work so I can put food on the table and keep the lights on.

If my purpose for living is the enjoyment of chocolate ice cream then I've probably got some deep issues.

 

[Eudaimonist]

It seems to me that there is a useful distinction to make between worship (latria) and reverence (dulia). Worship refers to the adoration owed to something holy, specifically a deity, while reverence is owed to human beings deserving of respect.

In Roman Catholic, and Orthodox theology, veneration is a type of honor distinct from the adoration due to God alone. According to Deacon Dr. Mark Miravelle, of Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration:

Adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the acknowledgement of excellence and perfection of an uncreated, divine person. It is the worship of the Creator that God alone deserves. Veneration, known as dulia in classical Catholic theology, is the honor due to the excellence and a created person. This refers to the excellence exhibited by the created being who likewise deserves recognition and honor. We see a general example of veneration in events like the awarding of academic awards for excellence in school, or the awarding of the Olympic medals for excellence in sports. There is nothing contrary to the proper adoration of God when we offer the appropriate honor and recognition that created persons deserve based on achievement in excellence.[8]
​

(Bolding mine.)

It is entirely possible to venerate without worship. In this blog, an interesting contrast is drawn consistent with what I quote above:

If one behaves with “reverence”, it implies honoring and respecting another person. One might show reverence to their grandfather, for instance. However, one would not go a step farther and claim to “worship” one’s grandfather.

In English, the word "worship" is sometimes defined in terms of veneration, but keeping the distinction above, it should be easy to see how atheists in fact venerate (an act in response to the human), but not worship (an act in response to the divine).


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

double post

 

[Eudaimonist]

I like chocolate ice cream but it's not my reason for living (I prefer strawberry anyway)

I don't think that a "reason for living" really gets to the heart of what worship means. I don't believe that we worship our reasons for living. See my previous post.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[endotheistguy]

Brightlights interesting thread you have here.

I wish I had something to add, I have the need
but not the means to say something clever about it.

worship is such a precise word? in everyday speech
it seems to refer to

reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage,
or to any object regarded as sacred.

I guess God by definition is seen as a sacred person.
so one would need to look up what sacred refers to?

sacred means devoted or dedicated to a deity or to some religious purpose

I've heard it means "to set aside as to be treated with respect" or similar.

My naive take on it is to see it as human acts and that the acts
and the attitude one have the body language when doing them
show by example that one place high value in that which the act
refers to or focus on.

Lacking knowledge about philosophy i can only relate to it
from a practical and maybe Folk Psychology stance.

I can be wrong but I trust it is the acts that establish that it is sacred
and worthy of worship. The example the person that act can be seen
as a role model to follow.

I usually say that I feel religious but seldom or never act on those feelings
because I fail to know what to focus on because to me Gods is a human
construct and what would it mean to give a human construct that much value????

I want to have something to worship but find it not morally right to do such
things without being sure of that it is the right thing to do. So your thread
is important to me.

I have only read the posts on the first page due to lack of time.

Has any of you come to a conclusion that can be shared by all of us?

 

[brightlights]

I want to have something to worship but find it not morally right to do such
things without being sure of that it is the right thing to do. So your thread
is important to me.

I have only read the posts on the first page due to lack of time.

Has any of you come to a conclusion that can be shared by all of us?

No conclusions, just a mess of colliding worldviews.

I appreciate your sentiment and I believe that you are identifying within yourself a God-given desire and disposition to worship. I would suggest to you that as you continue to examine yourself you might discover that there are things you regard as sacred or fundamental to your life. There are things that you trust in. These are the things that your worship is currently pointed toward. Here are a few questions to help reveal them:

1. What do you most fear?
2. What makes you most angry?
3. What makes you anxious?
4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?
5. What gives you the most joy?

Answering these questions may help you find where your worship resides.

 

[endotheistguy]

tonight or tomorrow I will try to read the other four pages
but is it okay to ask you if you can share your personal
answers to some of these questions?

1. What do you most fear?
Maybe to die totally alone
and the risk is great that that
is what will happen. I am now way past 65
and I am not as healthy as one would need to be
to be 80 or 90. And I am very alone so that scares me.

2. What makes you most angry?

When people are unfair and treat others carelessly?

3. What makes you anxious?

My lack of feeling self worth, I easily get too depressed
and lack meaning in life. I am too dependent on others.

4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind
continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?

Embarrassing to admit but I constantly get back to my pet idea.
that in the future believers or nonbelievers have managed to
make religions less destructive so they can be recommended
instead of being warned to not join or deal with.

5. What gives you the most joy?

I am not sure but a hug that shows that that person
accept me as I really am. Non-sexual hug.
A Mothers unconditional love kind of hug.

Apart from that I guess music but that is a sad story
because I fail to play or sing so I can not be part of it.

 

[Elioenai26]

tonight or tomorrow I will try to read the other four pages
but is it okay to ask you if you can share your personal
answers to some of these questions?

1. What do you most fear?
Maybe to die totally alone
and the risk is great that that
is what will happen. I am now way past 65
and I am not as healthy as one would need to be
to be 80 or 90. And I am very alone so that scares me.

2. What makes you most angry?

When people are unfair and treat others carelessly?

3. What makes you anxious?

My lack of feeling self worth, I easily get too depressed
and lack meaning in life. I am too dependent on others.

4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind
continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?

Embarrassing to admit but I constantly get back to my pet idea.
that in the future believers or nonbelievers have managed to
make religions less destructive so they can be recommended
instead of being warned to not join or deal with.

5. What gives you the most joy?

I am not sure but a hug that shows that that person
accept me as I really am. Non-sexual hug.
A Mothers unconditional love kind of hug.

Apart from that I guess music but that is a sad story
because I fail to play or sing so I can not be part of it.

I believe that most people here, if they were being brutally honest, would say the same things you have said in answering these questions, regardless of how old they are.

 

[endotheistguy]

One thing that is worrying me is the moral
of trying to find a friend now. that would mean
that either that friend would soon die or I would
and then we cause the other to mourn and leave
them alone so that is why I find the idea of a Church
rather practical.

Say a big church with thousands of members.

They would not be dependent on me personally
if I died and I would not be dependent on one single
new friend if him or her died soon after we met.

I would get hundreds of new friends and them too
would have hundreds of new friends so all of us
would be less dependent on one single friend that
meant all to us .

that would be morally less harmful to spread out
the need and dependency on very many that one
share the goal with to be friends to each other.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

I believe that most people here, if they were being brutally honest, would say the same things you have said in answering these questions, regardless of how old they are.

You would be wrong.

 

[endotheistguy]

What kind of answers would you two give then?
I tried to share mine.

 

[Rilke's Granddaughter]

tonight or tomorrow I will try to read the other four pages
but is it okay to ask you if you can share your personal
answers to some of these questions?

1. What do you most fear?

Boredom.

2. What makes you most angry?

the incompetent, the inconsiderate, and the infatuated. In that order.

3. What makes you anxious?

Waiting.

4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind
continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?

The structure of the brain and how consciousness works.

5. What gives you the most joy?

Music.

 

[endotheistguy]

No conclusions, just a mess of colliding worldviews.

I appreciate your sentiment and I believe that you are identifying within yourself a God-given desire and disposition to worship.

I would suggest to you that as you continue to examine yourself
you might discover that there are things you regard as sacred or
fundamental to your life. There are things that you trust in.

These are the things that your worship is currently pointed toward.
Here are a few questions to help reveal them:

1. What do you most fear?
2. What makes you most angry?
3. What makes you anxious?
4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?
5. What gives you the most joy?

Answering these questions may help you find where your worship resides.

i don't trust that I understand can you give examples.

to the first 1. What do you most fear?

I answered
Maybe to die totally alone
and the risk is great that that
is what will happen. I am now way past 65
and I am not as healthy as one would need to be
to be 80 or 90. And I am very alone so that scares me.

and I also answered that I feel it is not moral to try to find a new friend
because knowing that I maybe have only a few years left then I will
first have a strong emotional bond with that person and then just die
instead of us two having a long fruitful relationship.

I will cause that person pain of loss of friendship.

so I thought of that if one instead get together in big Church
and get hundreds of friends then each of them also has hundreds
of friends in the Church and then if one or two or three of us dies
then each of them has 97 friends to comfort the lost of us three
that statistically die out of old age.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I would suggest to you that as you continue to examine yourself you might discover that there are things you regard as sacred or fundamental to your life.

Self-examination is a good practice, and is one of the major pillars of what I identify as my spiritual path. Your questions are excellent, so I will participate.

1. What do you most fear?
Torture, but I don't seriously expect to be tortured. A painful, long-lasting medical condition is more likely.

Out of the most likely things, I think that I fear letting down a loved one (even a pet cat) who depends upon me because I have died. I don't fear death so much for my own sake. My concern is for the living.

2. What makes you most angry?
Subhuman behavior. Think Ghengis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, etc.

3. What makes you anxious?
Many things to at least some extent. It can be as simple as speaking with people I don't know at a party or nightclub.

4. What do you daydream about? What does your mind continually return to when it's on "auto-pilot"?
Could be many things. It could be a nostalgic review of my past, or planning my future, or philosophy, or erotic fantasies.

5. What gives you the most joy?
Self-actualization.

BTW, you've left out the most interesting related question: "What do you admire?" Too many of your questions were focused on the negative.

I already know what I find sacred in life (by "sacred", I mean simply the ends-in-themselves of life), though I don't regard myself as "worshipping" this in the sense of latria, but rather reverencing it in the sense of dulia. That would be the heroic genius implicit in the potentials of any human individual. By "heroic genius" I mean the capacity that human individuals have to mentally anticipate a noble personal destiny and to pursue that destiny. The "spirit" of living up to one's heroic genius is what I mean by the "exalted spirit of Man".


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[endotheistguy]

I would suggest to you that as you continue to examine yourself
you might discover that there are things you regard as sacred or fundamental to your life.

Yes but I fail to go from these answer to formulate
what I mean by religious Freethinker.

My naive thought is that I would want some cooperative collective
of individuals that longed for to create a compassionate togetherness
by being committed to a helping each other out.

Out of the most likely things, I think that I fear letting down a loved one (even a pet cat) who depends upon me because I have died. I don't fear death so much for my own sake. My concern is for the living.

That is so true. I long for to get me a Cat having been totally alone
for some 25 to 30 years I would love to have a Cat that wanted me
to hug it now and then. To feel totally accepted by at least one being.

But as you say.

I fear letting down a loved one (even a pet cat)
who depends upon me because I have died.

Cats live for some 15 to 20 years and I don't expect
me to even live 10 years more so if I get me a Cat
I need to see to it that somebody can take over
the Cat at my death.

Now I will try to read some 4 pages of text the whole thread

 

[endotheistguy]

BrightLights I have now read all you answers
to those that responded to you in this thread

I have also used the concept of a functional God
but not in same way as you do here.

My take is that If I go to a religious tradition say
Pentecostal Church in Sweden. Then each congregation?
or Local Church is independent of all the others but they
usually assemble once a years for weeks and worship
together and get to know each others view since last year
and that way they grow together and try to have a joint policy
on Jesus and God and all the other issues.

So for many many years them where at odds with
Words of Life Ministry from Tulsa Oklahoma USA
and teh Pentecostals in Sweden tried to tell their
own young folks to not go over to the new faith
that was rather successful luring members over.

The Pentecostal lost a lot of teh young members
and that can mean life and death in a small town
where every member counts.

so in that way sure every group and even every
single believer seems to have a functional inner
interpretation of what God is to them.

Some only accept a God that gives them the gift
of talking in tongue.

But if you go to very strict Swedish or German Baptists
then they don't speak in tongue and see that as some
thing humans have added to the scripture.

One are a good Christian even if one fail to receive
the gift of talking in tongue .

So in that way each have their own functional God.

So what was it you wanted to tell me?