Worship

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But I suppose the Bible doesn't say any of that does it?

How would we know that all that is correct?

Forgive me...

 

[a_ntv]

The biblical model of worship is a covenant experience (often a meal) whereby we actualize past experiences in remdemptive history and apply them to ourselves.
...

Our covenant symbol is Holy Communion. The meal is a covenant meal, celebrated on Sunday morning because this is when God finished his new creative work, by which we are (in baptism) united to him. By participating in the meal, at with the biblical narrative is recited (the words of the institution), we celebrate not only that we are a people in covenant relationship with Christ (though the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection Communiom commemorates), but that through the meal he continually saves us and applies his death and resurrection to us.

Well, worship as covenant experience is one of the possible view.

But there are other views:

Worship as partecipation to the Heaven Liturgy: That is extremply important because place ourself in the right prospective: to forget the our self to be part of His Body

Worship as adoration: too many times we think to God as a buddy friend: sometime we shall adore God like creatures in front of the creator.

Worship as sacrifice: you are not far when you say "through the meal he continually saves us and applies his death and resurrection to us". In fact Christ is out of the time, and the Eucharist is a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, and it applies its fruit. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice.

The birth of liturgy was not the Last Supper: it was on the cross when one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water: here we have the birth of the Eucharist (blood) and of the Baptism (water)

 

[YP4JC]

I think it is important to distinguish liturgy from worship. This is not to say that they are mutually exclusive. Liturgy is a wonderful way to facilitate corporate worship, and can often greatly enhance the worship experience. However, Jesus spoke of the "true worshipers," whom He said the Father was seeking! Powerful concept! God is searching the world for worshipers. Jesus didn't identify these worshipers by their devotion to a liturgy, but said that they would worship God "in Spirit and in truth."

My best interpretation of "Spirit and truth" (feel free to add to, modify or argue) is this:

To worship "in truth" is to worship according to the truth. The one true God does not accept worship to other gods, nor does He commend any worship that it outside of the realm of the truth (religious/spiritual truth is found in Christ alone - John 14:6, Col. 2:2-3).

To worship "in Spirit" means that our worship is through the Holy Spirit - it is spiritual in nature. Spiritual worship is relational. That is, New Covenant worship is a communion with a God who is not "up there" as much as He is within our hearts. "Christ in you, the hope of glory." We are not communing with ourselves, but with a God who has deigned to come so close as to take up residence within us! Amen!

Thus, I believe that ANY activity which results from our relationship with God is true worship. Whether we are quietly meditating on His word - lifting our hands duing the song service at church - or simply making a choice to be obedient to God in the simple situations of every day life...it's all worship.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The Church was able to worship in "Spirit and in Truth" for over 1500 years while praying "only" The Divine Liturgy.

Only in recent history do we find this wild freedom of the definition of worship.

Christians have ALWAYS worshipped using The Divine Liturgy and I would gamble that less than 10% of us here, including lurkers, have ever been in one.

No substitutions needed. If it not exciting enough for us then we should be ashamed.

Forgive me...

 

[MarkEvan]

Although I know that this passage has already been quoted by Beasley, I will take the liberty of quoting it again because it gives a clear deffinition of what true Spiritual worship is, and as has already been said "the Father seeks worshippers who worship in Spirit and truth."

1I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Our Spiritaul worship is our lives or more importantly how we lead them. Paul talks about it again to Timothy when he says, "for I am already being poured out as a libation," a libation is an offering to God...a sacrifice. All Pauls life has been a sacrifice to God and fullfilles what Jesus says "if you wish to be my disciples you must deny yourself and take up your cross daily, for those who loose their life will save it and those who save their life will lose it," if we save our lives by doing what we want (indulging the flesh) then we will ultimately loose our lives for eternity, if however we loose our lives (no longer take control and force our own desires and ambitions first but seek first the kingdom of God and to do His will)then we will save them because the life that we give to God is already dead and into that dead body God will breath life.

mark

Hope that makes sense.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Picture the OT Temple God had Moses build...

Is this not the one and same God? The Holy Trinity?

Do you think God would be pleased with a Rock and Roll band coming to play at Moses Temple?

Was not Moses temple modled the same way we see the Eternal Worship going on ih Heaven when we look to the book of Revelations?

Why do you think God would desire to change all this now and void all that his people have done in his name in the past?

What makes now different than then? Why only in these last two centuries are we deviating away from the worship of our fathers?

And because we have drifted away from The Divine Liturgy we no longer believe the same things. Christians all over the world are practicing something altogether different from each other leaving them without much common ground to step upon.

Pity.

Lord have mercy.

Forgive me....

 

[a_ntv]

My best interpretation of "Spirit and truth" (feel free to add to, modify or argue) is this:...

Spirit and Truth = Holy Spirit (Spirit) + Jesus Christ (Truth).

Our worship to God shall pass by the Holy Spirit and Christ.

The more simple possible interpretation (and typical of the ECFs)

Christians have ALWAYS worshipped using The Divine Liturgy and I would gamble that less than 10% of us here, including lurkers, have ever been in one.

Forgive me...what means 'lurkers' ?

 

[MarkEvan]

Picture the OT Temple God had Moses build...

Is this not the one and same God? The Holy Trinity?

Do you think God would be pleased with a Rock and Roll band coming to play at Moses Temple?

Was not Moses temple modled the same way we see the Eternal Worship going on ih Heaven when we look to the book of Revelations?

Why do you think God would desire to change all this now and void all that his people have done in his name in the past?

What makes now different than then? Why only in these last two centuries are we deviating away from the worship of our fathers?

And because we have drifted away from The Divine Liturgy we no longer believe the same things. Christians all over the world are practicing something altogether different from each other leaving them without much common ground to step upon.

Pity.

Lord have mercy.

Forgive me....

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the divine liturgy?

Mark

 

[~RENEE~]

Worship is more than the music. The music itself is praise.Worship is when the praise gets down inside you. Into the deepest parts of your being. Worship is in you it is how you act how you talk how you live.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Picture the OT Temple God had Moses build...




Forgive my ignorance, but what is the divine liturgy?

Mark

The Divine Liturgy is the corporate worship of The Church of the first 1500 years. It has gone largly unchanged from the 1st century Churches of Jerusalem and Antioch who still practice it today.

The earliest recorded version is The Divine Liturgy of St. James.

Forgive me...

 

[YP4JC]

Christians have ALWAYS worshipped using The Divine Liturgy and I would gamble that less than 10% of us here, including lurkers, have ever been in one.

Two questions for you OrthodoxyUSA...where does the "Divine Liturgy" come from? If you are taking it from scripture, please provide references. I would genuinely be very interested in worshiping according to scriptural mandates. If you are taking it solely from historical records than I would say that it would be WRONG of us to consider those historical records to be prescriptive, since only those who had the privilege of accessing those historical records would be able to be obedient to it. It also denies the sufficiency of scripture.

Second...are you implying that the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the only the true tradition? Or that it has in fact preserved the early liturgies without imposing any changes or new traditions in the past 1500 years?? Doubtful...

Picture the OT Temple God had Moses build...

Is this not the one and same God? The Holy Trinity?

Do you think God would be pleased with a Rock and Roll band coming to play at Moses Temple?

Do you think that the music in the temple was anything but contemporary for that time period?? David makes reference to contemporary instruments in the Psalms (tamborines, 10-stringed harps, lyres, etc.). Why would God expect us to use ancient instruments or songs in our worship services today? We play six-stringed "harps," keyboards (also very much like a harp) and drums (percussion=tamborines).

 

[a_ntv]

Second...are you implying that the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the only the true tradition? Or that it has in fact preserved the early liturgies without imposing any changes or new traditions in the past 1500 years?? Doubtful...

The Divine Liturgy of St. James, as we have now, is a text of about the VI century, and this ancient part is only the anaphora (=Eucharistic Prayer).
Anyway it is an development of a text of about the III-IV century (it is quite easy to date).

The EO Bizantine liturgy, that anyway changed a lot during the middle-age in the not-anaphoric parts, is simply a subset of one of the main four liturgical families:
- the Antiochan (=West Syrian) family, who gave origin to the Bizantine, Armenian, Maronite, Syrian Liturgies
- the East Syrian family
- the Alexandrine family, who gave origin to the Coptic and Ethiopic Liturgy
- the Western family, who gave origin to the Roman, Ambrosian and even Anglican and Lutheran liturgies.

The Western family is a far relative of the Alexandrine family. The East and West Syrian families are far relatives.

Even if the Liturgy changed (anyway not in the core), it is possible the trace back his history till the very early christian-judaic liturgy.

In the West we call it Mass, between Protestant the name is Lord Supper, among Bizantine it is Divine Liturgy, the Syrians call it Querbana, the Armenians call it Badarak....

 

[MarkEvan]

In the West we call it Mass, between Protestant the name is Lord Supper, among Bizantine it is Divine Liturgy, the Syrians call it Querbana, the Armenians call it Badarak....

But if this is true that the divine liturgy is the mass, how can peope say that this is the only true mode of worship when it does not even qualify for Romans 12, our acceptable worship is the laying down of our lives in sacrifice. I am not denying that for someone who is a true believer that the liurgy can be a part of worship as it is part of life butt it is not worship in and of itself!

If I have misunderstood my apologies.

Mark

 

[Brooke4Jesus]

how can we worship God without fear and reverence? He is an awesome God and if we didn't fear him then I don't think it could be true worship

 

[pletho]

Before another thread is derailed, I am starting this one on worship.

What does worship mean, and what sort of worship does our Lord desire from us.

What do you say worship is?

Must it be 'reverent'?

The first usage of worship is in the old testament of abrahams eldest servant

Gen 24:26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the lord.

Abraham had him swear in an oath to God that he would not take a wife for isaac of the daughters of the canaanites but of his, abrahams own kindred.

Gen 24:12 the servant prayed for God to help him fulfill his oath and that things work out favourably

Gen 24:26 the servant bowed his head, and worshipped the lord

The context of worship here is "genuine thankfulness from the heart for all that God had done for him"

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In other words truthfully by or via the spirit

I Corinthians 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

This is in the context of praying and singing in tongues, which the Corinthian believers were doing out of order when people who were unknowledgable, unlearned about praying and singing and speaking in tongues, were present, this is a whole other issue, but from the word it says that praying and singing in tongues givest thanks well.

Jesus Christ previously said that the true worshippers have to worship God in spirit and in truth, which is what singing and praying in tongues is. True worship, it's a spiritual thing, that can only be done by believing God that you can do it, that's why God has set it up as True Worship, because every body can believe if they want to, to do it, worship of any other kind is by the flesh and not by the spirit which means someone from a fleshly point of view can out worship another, which is not God's way at all, he makes it available for all to do, perfectly. God is no respctor of persons, He is fair and Just. And the attitude behind it is thankfulness to God for all that he has done for you from the heart.

Galatians 4:6 and because ye are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

Abba father, is a term of indearment it's like saying daddy, daddy to God, which melts God's heart because that's what He is a Father. If a Father or Mother has a child and the first time that physical child says daddy daddy or mommy mommy, it melts their heart, well God is spirit and when His spiritual child speaks in tongues it melts his heart because you are saying daddy daddy. Abba Father, Father Father. This is true worship!

Bless Steve

 

[relspace]

Before another thread is derailed, I am starting this one on worship.

What does worship mean, and what sort of worship does our Lord desire from us.

What do you say worship is?

Must it be 'reverent'?

What is worship? Sunday service? Singing? Sacrifices? Ah how God became tired of those sacrifices (Isaiah 1:11-17) and why? Because they were just a cover under which to hide evil doings. God has not desire for empty rituals.

What is worship? It is the first and greatest commandment, to love the Lord thy God, with all of your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind.

how can we worship God without fear and reverence? He is an awesome God and if we didn't fear him then I don't think it could be true worship.

God laid down His life for us on the cross, so we know that He love us more that we can understand. He is the definition of goodness and love. So what should we have to fear from Him? No one is more faithful or worthy of love. So why should we fear Him?

Why?

Because we cannot control Him. There is nothing we can do to appease Him. There is nothing we can say to manipulate Him. There is nothing we can quote to bind Him. There is nothing we can think that will contain Him. We fear what we cannot understand or control, and God is most certainly beyond our ability to understand or control.

Can you stand in front of God with confidence and say, "I am saved!" without trembling with fear? I am not such a fool!

But fear need not spoil your love for God if you surrender yourself to His will. The second commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. But the first commandment had no such proviso, for you should most definitely love God more than yourself. Love God because He is good and more worthy of love than anything in the universe and NOT because there is something you think to get from Him. Do this and there is no fear.

 

[sunlover1]

Eternal Worship is revealed in the book of Revelations.

Let us also remember that Eternal means no beginning and no ending.

Heavenly worship is, and has always been going on. It did not start as John looked on... it did not end when John's vision into eternity stopped.

We are to attempt to join ourselves to heavenly worship, and MANY people have done so... even now.

The Divine Liturgy of The Church is the measure of Christian Worship.

The Apostles were trained by Christ God to worship, and this is what they have handed down.

How is it that we are now confused by what worship is?

"The Divine Liturgy" centers on partaking of The Holy Eucharist... always has... always will.

The current model of The Divine Liturgy is modeled after The Divine Liturgy of St. James of Jerusalem as was taught to him by our Lord.

Forgive me...

Beautiful.
Thank you for blessing us Orthodoxy.


sunlover

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Two questions for you OrthodoxyUSA...where does the "Divine Liturgy" come from? If you are taking it from scripture, please provide references. I would genuinely be very interested in worshiping according to scriptural mandates. If you are taking it solely from historical records than I would say that it would be WRONG of us to consider those historical records to be prescriptive, since only those who had the privilege of accessing those historical records would be able to be obedient to it. It also denies the sufficiency of scripture.

Where does anything Divine come from?

Always from the Eternal side.

Heaven, if you will. Christ God himself... creator of all things seen and unseen.

Second...are you implying that the Eastern Orthodox tradition is the only the true tradition? Or that it has in fact preserved the early liturgies without imposing any changes or new traditions in the past 1500 years?? Doubtful...

That it is the purist of what remains of The Holy Traditions?

Yes.

As it has grown there have been changes, but let us discuss each one. The Orthodox Church is resistant to change. It is the charge of The Church to maintain all things handed down from the Apostles of Christ. And Christ himself said he would be with them until the ages of ages.

Christ does not change, nor does his Church.

Do you think that the music in the temple was anything but contemporary for that time period?? David makes reference to contemporary instruments in the Psalms (tamborines, 10-stringed harps, lyres, etc.). Why would God expect us to use ancient instruments or songs in our worship services today? We play six-stringed "harps," keyboards (also very much like a harp) and drums (percussion=tamborines).

The human voice is the ultimate instrument. We use other instruments to train it.

The Psalms are to be chanted or sung.


Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

But if this is true that the divine liturgy is the mass, how can peope say that this is the only true mode of worship when it does not even qualify for Romans 12, our acceptable worship is the laying down of our lives in sacrifice. I am not denying that for someone who is a true believer that the liurgy can be a part of worship as it is part of life butt it is not worship in and of itself!

If I have misunderstood my apologies.

Mark

Lets not confuse the wording here please. I have never been to a "mass", I don't know what that really means. I have no idea if the mass of The Church of Rome is today truely The Divine Liturgy. Some Catholic Churches still practice it ( Christ God Bless them) and some do not. Their loss.

As the world drifts farther away in time less is maintained.

I believe you will find us laying down our lives in The Divine Liturgy. That is why we are there.

We cleanse our thoughts words and deeds... laying aside all earthly cares. (Cherubic Hymn from The Divine Liturgy)

You must experience it... preferably in your native language, there is no substitute.

Forgive me...

 

[sunlover1]

The first usage of worship is in the old testament of abrahams eldest servant

Gen 24:26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the lord.

Abraham had him swear in an oath to God that he would not take a wife for isaac of the daughters of the canaanites but of his, abrahams own kindred.

Gen 24:12 the servant prayed for God to help him fulfill his oath and that things work out favourably

Gen 24:26 the servant bowed his head, and worshipped the lord

The context of worship here is "genuine thankfulness from the heart for all that God had done for him"

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In other words truthfully by or via the spirit

I Corinthians 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified

This is in the context of praying and singing in tongues, which the Corinthian believers were doing out of order when people who were unknowledgable, unlearned about praying and singing and speaking in tongues, were present, this is a whole other issue, but from the word it says that praying and singing in tongues givest thanks well.

Jesus Christ previously said that the true worshippers have to worship God in spirit and in truth, which is what singing and praying in tongues is. True worship, it's a spiritual thing, that can only be done by believing God that you can do it, that's why God has set it up as True Worship, because every body can believe if they want to, to do it, worship of any other kind is by the flesh and not by the spirit which means someone from a fleshly point of view can out worship another, which is not God's way at all, he makes it available for all to do, perfectly. God is no respctor of persons, He is fair and Just. And the attitude behind it is thankfulness to God for all that he has done for you from the heart.

Galatians 4:6 and because ye are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

Abba father, is a term of indearment it's like saying daddy, daddy to God, which melts God's heart because that's what He is a Father. If a Father or Mother has a child and the first time that physical child says daddy daddy or mommy mommy, it melts their heart, well God is spirit and when His spiritual child speaks in tongues it melts his heart because you are saying daddy daddy. Abba Father, Father Father. This is true worship!

Bless Steve

Woah!
Pletho you rock.
Flesh v Spirit worship.
Makes much sense.