World's oldest temple found in Turkey

[AV1611VET]

Heh, thats just what I thought. Many myths and legends often contain a grain of truth.

And from a archaeological point of view the Eden story is a tale of going from a "hunter gatherer" way of life to a farming one. So yes, this pace is a good candidate for "the garden of eden"

And let me guess --- the story of Cain and Abel was their desire to return to hunting-gathering, but the farmers prevailed?

 

[AV1611VET]

Was my question too hard for you Bible scholars?

 

[Cabal]

Was my question too hard for you Bible scholars?

18 minutes too long to wait?

 

[AV1611VET]

18 minutes too long to wait?

Well, you have a point, I suppose; after all, it did take 15hrs:11mins to come up with that doosey of a translation.

 

[Athrond]

And let me guess --- the story of Cain and Abel was their desire to return to hunting-gathering, but the farmers prevailed?

Nope. according to genesis 4 Abel was a pastoralist, keeping sheep. So archaeologically speaking he might be considered a "neolithic" man. *

apparently the lesson is, don't kill your brother even if he makes you jealous, and for some strange reasons God favours mutton over "fruit of the ground".

and pardon me for not living on the internet

Athrond



* I know you have a understanding filter that filters out any attempt to view the bible as anything but a "litteral"** description of events, but atleast try to appreciate that I have another view entirely, but can still be facinated by the bible as myth and story. I think for instance that the man Jesus, might have existed, and can appreciate soem of his teachings too. But this in the same manner as I think the war on Troy might have occured some time in the past, but excluding the magic.

** redicilous as you can not help but interpret it even if you want to.

 

[Nathan Poe]

And let me guess --- the story of Cain and Abel was their desire to return to hunting-gathering, but the farmers prevailed?

It was the farmer's (Cain) offering which was rejected -- The shepherd's (Abel) was accepted. Might explain why farming took a back seat in Hebrew culture.

 

[AV1611VET]

It was the farmer's (Cain) offering which was rejected -- The shepherd's (Abel) was accepted. Might explain why farming took a back seat in Hebrew culture.

I'm not going to get into this too deeply --- especially since I went at it big-time with others from my same church on this --- but, for the record, please show me from the Bible where Cain's offering was rejected. (If you want to, that is, as I am not going to say any more on this very sensitive subject.)

 

[Nathan Poe]

I'm not going to get into this too deeply --- especially since I went at it big-time with others from my same church on this --- but, for the record, please show me from the Bible where Cain's offering was rejected. (If you want to, that is, as I am not going to say any more on this very sensitive subject.)

I interpret Genesis 4:3-5...

3: And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4: And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

"having not respect" certainly constitutes rejection to me. Before you choose to disagree, aren't you the one who claims "very good" is the same as perfect?

 

[Gracchus]

It was the farmer's (Cain) offering which was rejected -- The shepherd's (Abel) was accepted. Might explain why farming took a back seat in Hebrew culture.

I'm not going to get into this too deeply --- especially since I went at it big-time with others from my same church on this --- but, for the record, please show me from the Bible where Cain's offering was rejected. (If you want to, that is, as I am not going to say any more on this very sensitive subject.)

You have to understand Nathan, he sowed dissension in his own church because of his stand on this issue. That is why it he is sensitive about the subject. (But note how he calls the subject sensitive. Apparently, we are to believe the subject got its feelings hurt!)



I don't mean to be rude, AV1611VET, but it has become obvious that when you are getting the worst of an argument, you don't concede, you just make an excuse, and quit the field, claiming victory.

 

[Nooj]

And let me guess --- the story of Cain and Abel was their desire to return to hunting-gathering, but the farmers prevailed?

Cain meant "smith". One of his descendants, Tubal-cain is the first metal worker (Genesis 4:22). In Sumerian and Akkadian, tubal also means 'smith'.

Once you realise their names are representative, the stories do look quite different. The whole thing could be a reflection of rivalries between herdsmen and farmers/sedentary occupations.

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't mean to be rude, AV1611VET, but it has become obvious that when you are getting the worst of an argument, you don't concede, you just make an excuse, and quit the field, claiming victory.

That's okay --- I'll give you a chance to "spoil my victory" --- you show me where God rejected Cain's offering.

 

[AV1611VET]

Cain meant "smith". One of his descendants, Tubal-cain is the first metal worker (Genesis 4:22). In Sumerian and Akkadian, tubal also means 'smith'.

Once you realise their names are representative, the stories do look quite different. The whole thing could be a reflection of rivalries between herdsmen and farmers/sedentary occupations.

And --- for the second time --- the farmers prevailed --- right?

 

[MoonLancer]

That's okay --- I'll give you a chance to "spoil my victory" --- you show me where God rejected Cain's offering.

You cant really can be suggesting that if the word "rejected" does not appear in AV1611VET that the meaning cannot be similar can you? Can rejection be expressed without using the word "rejected"?

tisk. You realize that the word "rejected" does not appear in the Hebrew language

 

[AV1611VET]

You cant really can be suggesting that if the word "rejected" does not appear in AV1611VET that the meaning cannot be similar can you? Can rejection be expressed without using the word "rejected"?

tisk. You realize that the word "rejected" does not appear in the Hebrew language

Forget the word "rejected" then --- can you show me at all that God rejected Cain's offering --- with or w/o that particular word.

And this is the last time I'm gonna ask.

 

[Tomk80]

Forget the word "rejected" then --- can you show me at all that God rejected Cain's offering --- with or w/o that particular word.

And this is the last time I'm gonna ask.

Genesis 3:5
5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


"Had not respect" is old english for rejected or did not appreciate. Really, if you read a book in old english (or fake old english), at least study the phraseology of the book you're reading.

 

[AV1611VET]

Genesis 3:5
5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


"Had not respect" is old english for rejected or did not appreciate. Really, if you read a book in old english (or fake old english), at least study the phraseology of the book you're reading.

Like I said, I'm not going to take this discussion to the next level. Not here, not there, not anywhere --- for very personal reasons.

 

[Tomk80]

Like I said, I'm not going to take this discussion to the next level. Not here, not there, not anywhere --- for very personal reasons.

Science can take a hike, reality can take a hike and now the bible can as well.

Clear.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Like I said, I'm not going to take this discussion to the next level. Not here, not there, not anywhere --- for very personal reasons.

"Personal reasons" being you're too proud to admit you've been proven wrong?

 

[Naraoia]

[/list]
AV is absolutely right in the context of his challenge. The problem is that he has not demonstrated that his challenge is a sufficient anolgy to reality.

I think the problem is more that he still acts like he expects people to believe him. After he told us we have no reason to.

Until someone takes my place, I'll continue to do what I do best --- defend the faith.

Except you're only making it look less believable (see above).

Genesis 3:5
5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.


"Had not respect" is old english for rejected or did not appreciate. Really, if you read a book in old english (or fake old english), at least study the phraseology of the book you're reading.

I thought Old English was this stuff: []

[FONT=Arial, Verdana, sans serif][SIZE=+1]Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon. [/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Athrond]

I honestly can't see how gen 2 can be interpreted as NOT being a tale of "creation".