Works?

[Darcy23]

Can anyone tell me what churches emphasize works, as in doing good brings you closer to God if not being an actual demand of His? I like the idea that not only faith but works is relevant to one's salvation.

Any help would be much appreciated. There are a lot of denominations out there and finding the answer to this is not as easy as one might think.

 

[Aibrean]

Except that it's not a Biblical concept. You don't "earn" salvation. I don't know of any churches that believe this. Certainly there are those that believe works contribute to treasures in heaven (that is Biblical), however that isn't the same thing.

 

[Andres1986]

Works are a way to show the growth of your fruits. we are are called to do works as a show of love. if you you like the idea, great. I can not think of a church that would not welcome with open arms someone who wants to give back through their effort. That said If go to a church that in any why tells you works is the way to heaven you are getting bad teaching. you can not work your way to God ( oh sure it can be work). God is not like some boss that will reward you on what you do for others. you must grow your faith through much inward reflection. I have done many things works wise for people and the church. frankly it is easy to get lost in the work and do nothing for your growth. the growth we do is what God needs from us. our works reflect Jesus and with that bring more people to Jesus.

 

[Darcy23]

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Aibrean and Andres, I can't figure out how your views fit with this scripture here:

Matthew 25:31-46

New International Version (NIV)

The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

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[Albion]

Can anyone tell me what churches emphasize works, as in doing good brings you closer to God if not being an actual demand of His? I like the idea that not only faith but works is relevant to one's salvation.

Any help would be much appreciated. There are a lot of denominations out there and finding the answer to this is not as easy as one might think.

All of the churches of the Wesleyan tradition come to mind--Methodists, Holiness, Nazarene, and perhaps most of all, the Salvation Army (which is so good at it that many people don't realize it's a church).

None of these believes that doing good works is what saves. I agree with Aibrean's caution there, but they emphasize doing good as a part of their ministry.

Is this what you were looking for? There are other churches which do believe that works contribute to our salvation in addition to faith, but they aren't especially known for making it a big part of the church's activities--which is what it seems you are after.

 

[Albion]

[FONT=tahoma, new york, times, serif]Aibrean and Andres, I can't figure out how your views fit with this scripture here:[/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma, new york, times, serif]Matthew 25:31-46[/FONT]

Darcy, this forum is for directing people who are looking for a church to the ones that best fit their beliefs as they have described them to us. If you want to discuss faith vs. works, there is a thread by that name you can go to. It's under Christian Apologetics.

 

[Darcy23]

Darcy, this forum is for directing people who are looking for a church to the ones that best fit their beliefs as they have described them to us. If you want to discuss faith vs. works, there is a thread by that name you can go to. It's under Christian Apologetics.

Okay. I just thought it would be all right in this section because the matter of works is important to me as I decide which church I'd like to join. Someone said my viewpoint is "unbiblical," without telling me what if any churches hold my same viewpoint.

I'll go to that section.

 

[Darcy23]

All of the churches of the Wesleyan tradition come to mind--Methodists, Holiness, Nazarene, and perhaps most of all, the Salvation Army (which is so good at it that many people don't realize it's a church).

None of these believes that doing good works is what saves. I agree with Aibrean's caution there, but they emphasize doing good as a part of their ministry.

Is this what you were looking for? There are other churches which do believe that works contribute to our salvation in addition to faith, but they aren't especially known for making it a big part of the church's activities--which is what it seems you are after.

And thank you very much Albion. I will be sure to read up on Methodism and those other churches you mentioned.

 

[Albion]

Okay. I just thought it would be all right in this section because the matter of works is important to me as I decide which church I'd like to join. Someone said my viewpoint is "unbiblical," without telling me what if any churches hold my same viewpoint.

I'll go to that section.

I understand, but this particular forum is special in being narrowly focused on getting people to the churches they are looking for. The thread I mentioned is in Christian Apologetics, but that isn't the only place that the subject has been debated lately. General Theology will probably help you as well.

One more thing. I focused on your wanting to be with a church that does a lot with good works in society. If you want a church that believes, as you do, that works are part of what God judges us by, but isn't as active as some others in having projects and programs to do so, there are plenty of churches that fit the bill. Get back to us if the theology is more important than the practice to you.

 

[Darcy23]

I understand, but this particular forum is special in being narrowly focused on getting people to the churches they are looking for. The thread I mentioned is in Christian Apologetics, but that isn't the only place that the subject has been debated lately. General Theology will probably help you as well.

One more thing. I focused on your wanting to be with a church that does a lot with good works in society. If you want a church that believes, as you do, that works are part of what God judges us by, but isn't as active as some others in having projects and programs to do so, there are plenty of churches that fit the bill. Get back to us if the theology is more important than the practice to you.

I guess the theology and the practice are important to me, though I'd be fine with a church that emphasised the practice without the belief, which, I'm coming to realize, is many mainstream churches.

Can I ask what churches do place emphasis on the theology of works as a means of salvation?

I did just check out that other thread you mentioned and its very good, quite helpful. Thanks again.

 

[Albion]

I guess the theology and the practice are important to me, though I'd be fine with a church that emphasised the practice without the belief, which, I'm coming to realize, is many mainstream churches.

Can I ask what churches do place emphasis on the theology of works as a means of salvation?

I did just check out that other thread you mentioned and its very good, quite helpful. Thanks again.

You're more than welcome. All the Catholic and Catholic-like churches (Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal, for instance) are theologically in line with your thinking. Some of them do, as a matter of in fact, engage in important humanitarian projects. And a small non-denominational movement, the "Churches of Christ" also believe in faith + works.

But it's true that mainline Protestantism in general are committed to the principle that we are saved by faith alone, with works of mercy being the fruit of that faith. So, considering everything, I'd still say to consider the Salvation Army, the Methodist churches, especially the United Methodist Church (the largest of them), and the Church of the Brethren.

 

[Aibrean]

Yet I've had RCC's correct me saying they do NOT believe that works contribute to salvation.

 

[Albion]

Yet I've had RCC's correct me saying they do NOT believe that works contribute to salvation.

I'd put that off to being a description of their own view of that matter, not the one held by their church.

 

[Darcy23]

You're more than welcome. All the Catholic and Catholic-like churches (Eastern Orthodox and Episcopal, for instance) are theologically in line with your thinking. Some of them do, as a matter of in fact, engage in important humanitarian projects. And a small non-denominational movement, the "Churches of Christ" also believe in faith + works.

But it's true that mainline Protestantism in general are committed to the principle that we are saved by faith alone, with works of mercy being the fruit of that faith. So, considering everything, I'd still say to consider the Salvation Army, the Methodist churches, especially the United Methodist Church (the largest of them), and the Church of the Brethren.

You have no idea how helpful you've been! I still might decide on a "faith only" mainstream protestant denomination like Baptism or Presbyterianism, but its good to know the other options out there. Its not easy pegging down the varying positions of the many different churches.

I'm trying not to turn this into a theological thread, but I have difficulty with the idea that a believer who commits terrible acts without repenting will receive softer judgment from God than even an atheist whose actions are remarkably selfless and good. But it seems like pretty much every church does strongly encourage its followers to not only be but to do good too, and so I'm sure with regards to this issue I'll be happy at whatever church I wind up belonging to.

Thanks again Albion. If anyone wishes to discuss the theology of works with me please pm me or post in the works thread in the christian apologetics section, as I'll be checking that thread out further.

 

[StormHawk]

Can anyone tell me what churches emphasize works,...

We believe that although man's charity is laudable and not to be criticised, it does not save. In the parable of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:32-end), the goats said about all the good works they did but Jesus pointed to the fact that they never did the spiritual feeding, clothing, freeing.

So, to have truly "good works", good by God's standard not just your own, you need to accept that you are spiritually dead and your works are "dead works", be baptised (accepting to confidence in "the flesh") and receive the filling of God's Spirit (evidenced by speaking in tongues - Acts 2:4, 33, 39; John 3:8)

Then, and only then, are you a new creation, "in Christ" and "Christ in you", to do his good works:

"we* are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10)

*the Ephesians, who had received this (see Acts 19:1-6).

 

[Aibrean]

I'm trying not to turn this into a theological thread, but I have difficulty with the idea that a believer who commits terrible acts without repenting will receive softer judgment from God than even an atheist whose actions are remarkably selfless and good. But it seems like pretty much every church does strongly encourage its followers to not only be but to do good too, and so I'm sure with regards to this issue I'll be happy at whatever church I wind up belonging to.

I don't believe any mainstream denomination would believe than an unrepentant believer would have "eternal security". Those who believe in OSAS would say that they were never truly saved to begin with if they keep sinning without remorse. That's a fairly dangerous assumption otherwise (to a believers spiritual health - to assume that you can do anything you want and get away with it). But an atheist is already damned because they haven't believed.

 

[someguy14]

All "church's" should agree that good fruits are a show of God, through a believer in God. It's very clear though, one serves good or one serves evil.

So the teaching that James talks about of good works should not be difficult to understand.
God is good. Wickedness is evil. Goodness produces goodness. Evilness produces evilness.

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

 

[Albion]

You have no idea how helpful you've been! I still might decide on a "faith only" mainstream protestant denomination like Baptism or Presbyterianism, but its good to know the other options out there. Its not easy pegging down the varying positions of the many different churches.

I'm trying not to turn this into a theological thread, but I have difficulty with the idea that a believer who commits terrible acts without repenting will receive softer judgment from God than even an atheist whose actions are remarkably selfless and good. But it seems like pretty much every church does strongly encourage its followers to not only be but to do good too, and so I'm sure with regards to this issue I'll be happy at whatever church I wind up belonging to.

Thanks again Albion. If anyone wishes to discuss the theology of works with me please pm me or post in the works thread in the christian apologetics section, as I'll be checking that thread out further.

Thank you, Darcy. If this were a simple, cut and dried, bit of theology, we'd all have addressed it for you. However, it is one of the most divisive and difficult in all of Christian theology, made the worse by the many ways people can word the issue and the fact that scripture gives ample hints both ways that people of the opposite sides of the argument can point to. I see that Aibrean has addressed one part of it for you, though, and I agree with her that an unrepentant sinner doesn't get treated any worse than a non-believer; it's sin, after all, that condemns anyone.