Works vs faith

[JustAsIam77]

If we fall away from the belief of salvation thru grace alone, believing we can help our cause thru works... does that mean we lose the reward of atonement? Do we risk the wrath & judgement of God because we revert to salvation through law and ourselves?

 

[A New Dawn]

Hebrews 6 should help you out there.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hebrews 6 should help you out there.

Thank you for that reference. I'm not speaking of falling away from the faith. If we must choose between righteousness of the law and righteousnes by faith... if we stand by the law, Christ is no use to us.

Will God judge us because of our clinging to the law for our salvation?

By rejecting the atonement of Christ alone for our salvation and believing our works could somehow help us, could that jeopardize our salvation in Gods eyes? (An affront to Jesus's supreme sacrifice which should cover all transgressions).

 

[Blank123]

if you believe that yuou can earn your salvation then yes, you are throwing away the gospel of the Bible and substituting it for something else. Thats exactly what Paul was talking about when he wrote Galatians:

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! - Gal 1

 

[benedictaoo]

If we fall away from the belief of salvation thru grace alone, believing we can help our cause thru works... does that mean we lose the reward of atonement? Do we risk the wrath & judgement of God because we revert to salvation through law and ourselves?

I have never really know any legitimate Christian faith believe that you aren't saved by grace and that out side it, you can earn salvation.

I think maybe it would be good for you to understand the place good works has in the Christian life.

 

[benedictaoo]

Thank you for that reference. I'm not speaking of falling away from the faith. If we must choose between righteousness of the law and righteousnes by faith... if we stand by the law, Christ is no use to us.

Will God judge us because of our clinging to the law for our salvation?

By rejecting the atonement of Christ alone for our salvation and believing our works could somehow help us, could that jeopardize our salvation in Gods eyes? (An affront to Jesus's supreme sacrifice which should cover all transgressions).

Well again, I don't know any knowledgeable Christian who would choose between believing grace saves them and works saving them. That truly is a false dichotomy. It's truly a phantom issue.

But hypothetically, If a redeemed Christian person would choose willfully to believe that grace is not necessary and all they have to do work for heaven, I would say they cease being Christian because what about Christ are they believing? That is Muslim, not Christian. And they would be awful tired because with out grace, it's an impossible task.

But I don't know if God would punish them or not with hell. I doubt it because if they were saved by grace, they could never lose it, right?

And a God who punishes in that way, if we do not 'do' something for His favor, again, is not the Christian God. It's more of the Muslim God who punishes if you don't do the works, IOW, dependant on something you do or don't do.

Like us all, God gives the grace to believe and we can work all we want and that really isn't the worst thing any person can do with their life, do good to others, but it's at that final moment when we meet the Lord, we can either accept it's His grace that saves us or we can say, no, I'd rather go to hell then believe I was saved by you and not my ME. I have no idea who on earth or above the earth would do that... it's in doing good we open up to knowing just what God's grace is and does. I can't imagine someone doing good not knowing grace, let alone rejecting it.

Again, this is juncture, I have never known any Christan who would come close to thinking God's grace did not save them from the pits of hell. That would be a Muslim, not a Christian.

 

[A New Dawn]

Thank you for that reference. I'm not speaking of falling away from the faith. If we must choose between righteousness of the law and righteousnes by faith... if we stand by the law, Christ is no use to us.

Will God judge us because of our clinging to the law for our salvation?

By rejecting the atonement of Christ alone for our salvation and believing our works could somehow help us, could that jeopardize our salvation in Gods eyes? (An affront to Jesus's supreme sacrifice which should cover all transgressions).

IMO, falling away from the faith that Christ bears sole responsibility for our salvation to a works-based salvation is exactly what happened in Hebrews 6.

The role of works is directly tied to our relationship with God. I, being a Calvinist, believe that you can do nothing for yourself at any point. Good works prior to regeneration have a suspect motive, and good works after regeneration are done for the glory of God. It says in Ephesians 2:10 that we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Since that comes directly after the verses that say that we receive salvation as a gift (and not of works so none may boast), it is my understanding that relying on ourselves for salvation would merit us nothing.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm not trying to ensue a debate but Hebrew 6 is referring to when we fall and sin after professing faith in Christ and renouncing Satan, not when we fall and do good... If we sin, we have away back but when you sin and refuse to accept that grace that God offers us as redeemed children of his, then what is going to save you? Not much.

You would have to pint out to me just where Paul says we lose salvation when we cease to believe Christ blood redeemed us and is what our justification is when we die and met the Lord and choose to do good. he means when we choose to sin.

Like I said, I have no idea what Christens would even come close to rejecting the grace of their redemption and going for good works instead... that really is baffling to me. It's just not a reality. I do not know any Christan who would do that. BUt I do know many who would reject it and go for sin instead.

 

[Nadiine]

I haven't read any posts here yet,
but there's a difference btwn falling out of Belief and falling
into sin/works of sin.

I still say those who fall out of Belief never WERE of the
genuine faith or they would stay in belief; becuz it's GOD
upholding us and enabling/enpowering us to continue along
in our faith.

I think these people had a FORM of belief - but not saving faith that
transforms the soul to life which continues until the day
they're redeemed.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm just not getting the dichotomy. faith vrs works. there is no such thing to a Christian.

PPl just don't fall out of faith and then into good works. It just doesn't happen. If you fall out of faith, you turn to sin, not good works.

If you never really believed in the first place, it's possible you have this Muslim, pagan belief. But you do not remain a Christian, you reject Christ and his grace and that is when works can't save. That is sin but again, I donlt find these ppl really do good. they do humanist, liberal misguided notion of what good is.

The whole notion of good works instead of the blood of Christ is Muslim, and they never did believe in grace or they abandoned Christianity, but they do not stay one and think grace is not valid.

 

[A New Dawn]

I don't think it can happen, either. I think what is being asked is if one can turn from a belief that faith, alone, can save us, to a belief that works + faith saves us, with works being at least partly salvific. I'd have to agree with Nadiine that if someone believed in faith alone, then "fell away" to believing that works are in any way salvific, then they were not saved to begin with because they would understand that Christ accomplished everything necessary for salvation. IMO.

I don't want to get into a debate about it because I know that others have different opinions, or at least express the idea differently, and I'm just putting out a reason I believe that a works + faith salvation is not a viable belief. It is either works (law) or faith.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well then I agree. But what it means is that a person is rejecting Christianity and leaving it for something else. I don't think a Christan can be one and not believe in grace and think their works dos it for them.

But leaving the faith is called apostasy and what Paul was speaking about in Hebrews.

If we wilfully reject Christ unto death, knowing good and well what we are doing, then no, that person can not find salvation, no matter how good his works may be.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I don't think it can happen, either. I think what is being asked is if one can turn from a belief that faith, alone, can save us, to a belief that works + faith saves us, with works being at least partly salvific. I'd have to agree with Nadiine that if someone believed in faith alone, then "fell away" to believing that works are in any way salvific, then they were not saved to begin with because they would understand that Christ accomplished everything necessary for salvation. IMO.

I don't want to get into a debate about it because I know that others have different opinions, or at least express the idea differently, and I'm just putting out a reason I believe that a works + faith salvation is not a viable belief. It is either works (law) or faith.

Thank you my sister in Christ. I agree completely with your POV. Also my apologies, Hebrews 6 does indeed address this.

 

[Jesus Is Real]

Thank you for that reference. I'm not speaking of falling away from the faith. If we must choose between righteousness of the law and righteousnes by faith... if we stand by the law, Christ is no use to us.

Will God judge us because of our clinging to the law for our salvation?

By rejecting the atonement of Christ alone for our salvation and believing our works could somehow help us, could that jeopardize our salvation in Gods eyes? (An affront to Jesus's supreme sacrifice which should cover all transgressions).

God 'can' and 'is' balancing His Word in all of His Children's lives, and it will "not" be any other.

If you let God's Word read you where it speaks about His Law - ask Him to help you in times of need through His Grace to obey.

There surely is much to learn in God's Perfect Word and much to tear down inside of us, just like when God led the Children of Israel into the Promised Land. They were blood bought but still the enemies on the land needed to be dispossed.

 

[Secundulus]

I think I'd rather believe the Apostle Paul than the Lawyer John Calvin.

"God called us to be holy, not to be immoral; in other words, anyone who rejects this is rejecting not human authority, but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8, NJB)

 

[JustAsIam77]

I think I'd rather believe the Apostle Paul than the Lawyer John Calvin.

"God called us to be holy, not to be immoral; in other words, anyone who rejects this is rejecting not human authority, but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit." (1 Thessalonians 4:7-8, NJB)

Why bring Calvin into the conversation.

 

[Secundulus]

Why bring Calvin into the conversation.

Because he and Luther were the source of this 500 year argument on Faith vs. Works.

Everybody before that understood that you were saved by faith but that after justification you were expected to to show the fruit of that faith through works.

It's all part of the Covenant between God and Man. A covenant is a two way agreement.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Because he and Luther were the source of this 500 year argument on Faith vs. Works.

Everybody before that understood that you were saved by faith but that after justification you were expected to to show the fruit of that faith through works.

It's all part of the Covenant between God and Man. A covenant is a two way agreement.

Thank God for Luther & Calvin who clarified the fact that we're saved thru faith & grace alone. Nothing else. The reformation was an eye opening experience for millions who were before that time anguishing that they could never enter heaven because of their imperfect lives.

 

[Secundulus]

Thank God for Luther & Calvin who clarified the fact that we're saved thru faith & grace alone. Nothing else. The reformation was an eye opening experience for millions who were before that time anguishing that they could never enter heaven because of their imperfect lives.

And now we have millions that think they can simply say the sinner's prayer and accept Jesus into their hearts while continuing to live as total reprobates.

 

[Blank123]

except for the anabaptists who everybody pretty much hated because they believed we aren't justified by works or rituals.