Works Salvation is False

[fhansen]

Oh no doubt your participation is involved! I never say otherwise. But your participation is not what brings about your regeneration, and your participation subsequent to regeneration is also God's work. Not "a joint effort", as though we improve on what God does, but God in us doing in us. Involved? —oh my yes! Intimately!

Sure, as intimate as puppets can get.

Falls somewhat short of demonstration. . .

Been there done that. Go back and read my posts in various threads if it's wisdomn that you seek.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sure, as intimate as puppets can get.

Then, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"

Been there done that. Go back and read my posts in various threads if it's wisdomn that you seek.

Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."

Fhansen, I thought you were better than this.

 

[fhansen]

Oh no doubt your participation is involved! I never say otherwise. But your participation is not what brings about your regeneration, and your participation subsequent to regeneration is also God's work. Not "a joint effort", as though we improve on what God does, but God in us doing in us. Involved? —oh my yes! Intimately!

I agree your strawman is irrational. You even make as though (according to Reformed Theology, (or perhaps you mean, my theology)), the believer doesn't have to struggle to obey, to be continually putting to death the old man, to be in agony over his own sinfulness, to be exhausting himself and sometimes even in despair over his lack of Godliness, and to continue to plod on and on, pursuing the work of faithfulness in denial of self. You also don't seem to recognize (in our theology) the joy of knowing Christ, in the beauty of God's majesty and the power of his purity.

Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.

 

[fhansen]

Then, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"

It's not a strawman even if you prefer asserting that it is. If a person is totally changed in disposition such that they can no longer choose but in such a way as to be saved, then they are puppets; they're destiny is totally out of their hands. A rose is still a rose by any other name. And why contest this,? You continously maintain that very thing; that it's all predetermined by God.

 

[fhansen]

Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."

Fhansen, I thought you were better than this.

Yes, yes, yes! I'm sorry Mark but I know the gospel. And wisdom is better, and to be sought, and to be had, according to God's Word. And I'm only half serious about my posts. But as I've stated, people need to do their homewpork, to not dismiss history, to obejectively read the patristics, the decrees of the councils, early church histories, lives of the saints, ancient theological works and catechisms, etc, to know the faith.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.

After all this time of talking back and forth, you and I, you haven't picked up on the notion that I don't say that our perseverance is automatic, but rather that it is sure? I certainly CAN fall away, and, in fact, if I don't persevere, I was none of his. But for the elect, the perseverance WILL HAPPEN. And God will see to it.

Maybe I never asked you to show me how anyone can undo what God has decreed.

 

[fhansen]

After all this time of talking back and forth, you and I, you haven't picked up on the notion that I don't say that our perseverance is automatic, but rather that it is sure? I certainly CAN fall away, and, in fact, if I don't persevere, I was none of his. But for the elect, the perseverance WILL HAPPEN. And God will see to it.

Maybe I never asked you to show me how anyone can undo what God has decreed.

No one argues that the elect will fall away. It would be redundant to say that the elect will be saved. The problem is that it's a moot point while here on earth-because we cannot know with 100% certainty whether we're numbered among that group or not even as some maintain that we can. So, have you been you regenerated? And, are the regenerate guaranteed heaven?

 

[Mark Quayle]

It's not a strawman even if you prefer asserting that it is. If a person is totally changed in disposition such that they can no longer choose but in such a way as to be saved, then they are puppets; they're destiny is totally out of their hands. A rose is still a rose by any other name. And why contest this,? You continously maintain that very thing; that it's all predetermined by God.

Were you a puppet when you were born the first time?

 

[Mark Quayle]

No one argues that the elect will fall away. It would be redundant to say that the elect will be saved. The problem is that it's a moot point while here on earth-because we cannot know with 100% certainty whether we're numbered among that group or not even as some maintain that we can. So, have you been you regenerated? And, are the regenerate guaranteed heaven?

Of course the regenerate are guaranteed heaven. But in spite of all the assurances, yes, I can fool myself. Does that make you feel better?

But no, it is not a moot point. You talk as though it is a cooperative effort, where what the creature can do adds to, improves on, completes, what God has done.

The fact that GOD is the one doing this in me gets my eyes off me. HE is the one that made the Elect the Elect. THEY did not do it.

Whether or not I am one of the Elect is hardly the issue, anymore. The question is, does God have my whole heart? Do I love him? Does my life show it? Do I keep his commandments? But what is amazing to me is what I did not expect, many years ago, growing up as though I could measure up by my obedience and goodness. I found out that everything about whether or not I am going to make it, fades out of sight in comparison with the exceeding satisfaction at HIS happiness and HIS satisfaction with the work of his hands.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Yes, yes, yes! I'm sorry Mark but I know the gospel. And wisdom is better, and to be sought, and to be had, according to God's Word. And I'm only half serious about my posts. But as I've stated, people need to do their homewpork, to not dismiss history, to obejectively read the patristics, the decrees of the councils, early church histories, lives of the saints, ancient theological works and catechisms, etc, to know the faith.

In other words, to see from a perspective unlike yours, means they lack wisdom. Of course wisdom is better and to be sought, and to be had, but really, even half serious, is a ludicrous attempt at glory robbing from the wisdom of God. I feel like getting sarcastic, how Job did to his 'friends'.

And @Clare73 knows the gospel too, and from what I can tell, knows it far better than you, who think you can add to what God has done by grace alone. And I'd take her wisdom 10 times out of 10 over yours. Just saying... Clare's no novice.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Whether or not you maintain that the believer doesn't have to struggle, in your theology his victory is guaranteed, which it is not. And this is why so many passages exhort and plead with believers to be vigilant and to persevere, because of the possilbity of failing. We don't even have the abiloty to predict our own perseverance for that matter.

You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!

Fhansen, self-determination is a bummer, man. It never works out in the end.

 

[fhansen]

In other words, to see from a perspective unlike yours, means they lack wisdom. Of course wisdom is better and to be sought, and to be had, but really, even half serious, is a ludicrous attempt at glory robbing from the wisdom of God. I feel like getting sarcastic, how Job did to his 'friends'.

And @Clare73 knows the gospel too, and from what I can tell, knows it far better than you, who think you can add to what God has done by grace alone. And I'd take her wisdom 10 times out of 10 over yours. Just saying... Clare's no novice.

This is an almost embarrassingly self-serving attempt at a response. God directs us to seek wisdom and then having wisdom becomes glory robbing from Him. Sure. Of course. And, oh yes, Clare has it anyway. I wish she did. I seek no glory for myself, only the wisdom to know and defend the true gospel. And I do. I hate to see it subverted by a lack of wisdom, stemming from the Reformation.

 

[fhansen]

You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!

Fhansen, self-determination is a bummer, man. It never works out in the end.

It’s not either/or, but both/and, God and man. Did Adam determine his own choice to sin? Or did God tell Adam not to sin while predetermining that he would sin? It’s that sanity issue rearing it’s head again.

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is an almost embarrassingly self-serving attempt at a response. God directs us to seek wisdom and then having wisdom becomes glory robbing from Him. Sure. Of course. And, oh yes, Clare has it anyway. I wish she did. I seek no glory for myself, only the wisdom to know and defend the true gospel. And I do. I hate to see it subverted by a lack of wisdom, stemming from the Reformation.

No. The glory robbing is to claim wisdom is to be found in your posts, even if you are half serious in saying it. And I don't appreciate the mocking misrepresentation of what I said.

The wisdom is found in scripture, not in humans, not in magisterial hierarchical structures, not in traditions, not in new concepts and not in old concepts. "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God."

Is the Gospel entirely of Grace, or is it not?

 

[Mark Quayle]

It’s not either/or, but both/and, God and man. Did Adam determine his own choice to sin? Or did God tell Adam not to sin while predetermining that he would sin? It’s that sanity issue rearing it’s head again.

Now look who's bringing an either /or into it. You think it has to be either Adam who willed to sin, or God that decreed that Adam sin.

God is FIRST CAUSE. OMNIPOTENT. He is not us. He is no fool, to make something not knowing what will happen —he made it INTENDING that it happen. And we freely will to do precisely what he planned. Nothing insane about that. What lacks sanity is to think that anything but first cause is absolutely spontaneous, uncaused.

 

[fhansen]

You may be pleased to learn that my outlook is not that my 'victory' is guaranteed, but that it is in GOD's hands. This story was written by him from the foundation of the world, and he will see it done. There's no puppetry in being IN CHRIST. But my efforts don't rate on any scale compared to what he is doing in me. Yet I find I am driven to do, nonetheless. No, in fact, I'm driven more than ever, knowing HE is the one doing this!

Fhansen, self-determination is a bummer, man. It never works out in the end.

Sounds almost noble but either way, is your victroy not guaranteed by God? Or is it guaranteed? There seems to be no straight answer on this. To say that the will is uninvolved, or only involved as God determines, is nonsense, as if He couldn't make an independently morally accountable being, as if He's responsible for all choices, good or evil. We wouldn't even need to hear the word if that were the case.

"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne." Rev 3:20-21

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." Rev 22:12-14

All Catholic teachings proclaim that this victory is a matter of grace from beginning to end, impossible apart from it. But grace that can be resisted, which is the only reason for being exhorted not to do so. Human freedom can be abused, or not; we can choose good, or evil, until the end of our lives. Here's some wisdom from the Catholic Catechism:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

 

[fhansen]

No. The glory robbing is to claim wisdom is to be found in your posts, even if you are half serious in saying it. And I don't appreciate the mocking misrepresentation of what I said.

I stand on what I said-you're still doing it. Does God want us to have wisdom or not? We can-and certainly should-ask Him for it. My posts are nothing but an accurate reflection of His revelation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

is your victroy not guaranteed by God? Or is it guaranteed? There seems to be no straight answer on this.

GOD's victory is guaranteed. Not mine, except it be in him. That is a straight answer. You want one that fits self-determinism.

I stand on what I said-you're still doing it. Does God want us to have wisdom or not? We can-and certainly should-ask Him for it. My posts are nothing but an accurate reflection of His revelation.

The mocking misrepresentation that I referred to was to make as though I did not believe "We can-and certainly should-ask Him for [wisdom]", and you are doing it again now, as though you never even read what I said.

But it's amazing how a supposedly humble servant of the Lord can claim to be without error in his many posts.

 

[Clare73]

#2 -- I see, the translators you prefer also happen to be the precise ones.

dikaiosis, dikaioma, dikaioo = legal and formal acquittal from guilt by God as Judge, the pronouncement of the sinner as righteous (by faith).

Yes, those can be translated as declared or aquitted, or simply made right or just,

#3 -- You stated this in post #57 about dikaioi:
"Dikaioi is a form of dikaiosis = declaration of right standing with God's justice.

And this is simply not the definition of dikaioi, having nothing to do with a declaration of anything, but simply meaning right or just.

Did #3 miss what #2 stated?

Or did #3 forget that while form changes, substance does not (post #116); i.e.,
the change of form from dikaiosis to dikaioi does not change the substance of the meaning i.e., acquittal of guilt, forensic righteousness.

 

[John Mullally]

Then, as I surmised, you don't know what I believe, even after all this back and forth on how many threads... All you know is your strawmen. "But I know they are true, not strawmen! After all, I built them myself!"

Say what??? "If any of you lack wisdom, let him go read fhansen's posts..."

Fhansen, I thought you were better than this.

The meaning of life is to glorify God by creating men and angels to serve as caretakers for His living ways, and in 343 William Lane Craig vs James White – Calvinism vs. Molinism on the Problem of Evil, 10:18-10:43, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECcN-fisQRk. 274 so doing, to enjoy meaningful fellowship together. Creating a kingdom of sock-puppetted Yes-Men through exhaustive determinism would only amount to mediocrity, since it would not achieve meaningful fellowship, and therefore independent, autonomous libertarian free-will was necessary for God’s creation. God is in control, though not all-controlling, and is able to achieve His objective for humanity, despite the negative use of free-will by some, simply because God is all-powerful, all-wise and allknowing. In other words, God does not need to play both sides of the proverbial Chess Board in order to guarantee victory. Such a prospect literally terrifies Calvinists, but it also reveals that Calvinists don’t truly believe that God is all-powerful, all-wise and all-knowing, and hence needs determinism