Works Salvation is False

[Michie]

Romans 10 in context:

10 Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”[a] 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”[b] (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’”[c] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”[d] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e]12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]
16 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”[i]
19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]
20 And Isaiah boldly says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]
21 But concerning Israel he says,
“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”[l]

 

[Michie]

Galatians 3 in context:

Faith or Works of the Law​

3 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced[b] so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[c]

7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham. 8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”[d] 9 So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”[e] 11 Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God,because “the righteous will live by faith.”[f] 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”[g] 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”[h] 14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

The Law and the Promise​

15 Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed.Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,”[i] meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seedto whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.

21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

Children of God​

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of Godthrough faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ,then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirsaccording to the promise.

 

[Michie]

Romans 3 in context:

God’s Faithfulness​

3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”[a]
5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?”8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”?Their condemnation is just!

No One Is Righteous​

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith​

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

 

[Michie]

Genesis 15 in context:

The Lord’s Covenant With Abram​

15 After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision:

“Do not be afraid, Abram.
I am your shield,[a]
your very great reward.[b]”
2 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit[c] my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?”3 And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”

4 Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” 5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring[d]be.”

6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

7 He also said to him, “I am the Lord, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to take possession of it.”

8 But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, how can I know that I will gain possession of it?”

9 So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.”

10 Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other;the birds, however, he did not cut in half. 11 Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away.

12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

17 When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. 18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— 19 the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, 20 Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites,21 Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

 

[Michie]

John 5 in context:

The Healing at the Pool​

5 Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for one of the Jewish festivals. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3 Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. [4] [b] 5 One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, “Do you want to get well?”

7 “Sir,” the invalid replied, “I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me.”

8 Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

The day on which this took place was a Sabbath,10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”

11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

12 So they asked him, “Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?”

13 The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.

14 Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, “See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you.” 15 The man went away and told the Jewish leaders that it was Jesus who had made him well.

The Authority of the Son​

16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed.21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is comingwhen all who are in their graves will hear his voice29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Testimonies About Jesus​

31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true. 32 There is another who testifies in my favor,and I know that his testimony about me is true.

33 “You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34 Not that I accept human testimony;but I mention it that you may be saved. 35 John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John.For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study[c] the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings,42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God[d]?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

 

[Michie]

Philippians 2 in context:

Imitating Christ’s Humility​

2 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit.Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with Godsomething to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Do Everything Without Grumbling​

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing,15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[c] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain.17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you.18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

Timothy and Epaphroditus​

19 I hope in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you soon, that I also may be cheered when I receive news about you. 20 I have no one else like him,who will show genuine concern for your welfare.21 For everyone looks out for their own interests,not those of Jesus Christ. 22 But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel. 23 I hope, therefore, to send him as soon as I see how things go with me. 24 And I am confident in the Lord that I myself will come soon.
25 But I think it is necessary to send back to you Epaphroditus, my brother, co-worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger, whom you sent to take care of my needs. 26 For he longs for all of you and is distressed because you heard he was ill. 27 Indeed he was ill, and almost died. But God had mercy on him, and not on him only but also on me, to spare me sorrow upon sorrow.28 Therefore I am all the more eager to send him,so that when you see him again you may be glad and I may have less anxiety. 29 So then, welcome him in the Lord with great joy, and honor people like him, 30 because he almost died for the work of Christ. He risked his life to make up for the help you yourselves could not give me.

 

[Michie]

Ephesians 2 in context:

Made Alive in Christ​

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works,so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ​

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise,without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Michie]

Just presenting Scripture in context as it is cherry picked and posted. As scripture warns:

James 3:1 (ESV)

3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Souls are at stake.

 

[fhansen]

Yes.

It is specifically all mankind. But since believers are part of that mankind, yes.

None, It does not apply to "born again" specifically but mankind.

Absolutely. It the world, universe was condemned through Adam then the Second Adam reconciled that world back to God. Here are some very specific texts addressing the Incarnate Christ's work. Col 1:20. II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:20-22, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9, Heb 2:14-16.

No. assume you are an unbeliever first. He has been redeemed by Christ as part of humanity. He has now been made right with God, meaning he has an eternal existence again and if he believes he can have his sin forgiven.
Now, you believe, repent and are baptized. Vs 13 is what the Holy Spirit does through baptism, regeneration of our spirit, Read Rom 6 which is called the baptism chapter will explain what baptism means. By the way, this does not mean you are saved (past tense) you are being saved. If you are faithful your inheritance waits - eternal life.

Negative. It means the world was given life, overcoming the condemnation of death. The world was made right with God by Christ. It is why we can speak of the resurrection of the dead, and a new heaven and new earth at the Second Coming of Christ.

You are confused because there are two kinds of works. You refer ONLY to works of the law, but negate that Paul also uses "works of faith. When scripture uses the phrase, "through faith" it is referring to the continuous action for believers to do the work of God, and if faithful will inherit eternal life. That is one's personal salvation.

So, when you justify your checkbook with your bank statement you are declaring your checkbook free of guilt" You can use the word, reconcile here as well. It only means that in western theology which follows Anselms theory of Satisfaction. In Greek dikaiosis has never had a legal meaning or forensic meaning.

Dictionaries that are written by western theologions. It is why such a verse as Rom 5:18 becomes so incoherent. In none of the uses of dikaiosis in scripture is there ever a context of a court, or justification of a law. How can death become not guilty in Rom 5:18, No, death was made right by life.

Yes, but He paid it for mankind. Christ did not save believers by His death and resurrection. He made it possible to have union with mankind again and those that believe and are faithful will inherit eternal life. A believer is one who chooses to be in union with God by faith.

Dikaiosis has never meant, justification (freed from guilt or forensic law) As I stated Latin did not have a corresponding word, so the Latin translators used the closest thing they had, justify as it was used in Roman law. This is why this theory is so dangerous. It becomes an external aspect of one's existence. It is an external judgement upon a person with no resulting change in that person. Whereas the correct understanding in those verses is imparted righteousness. Meaning and internal change to man's existence thus making him acceptable to God.

That is the point. He never used the word "justify, justified, justification. He used dikaiosis.


Already did so.

You have given the best interpretation of the error of the theory of Original Sin which both the Latins and Protestants inherited from the erroneous theory written by Augustine which never became doctrine of the Church, but was condemned until 600 years later when it was incorporated into the Satisfaction theory of atonement by Anselm.
We never inherit guilt from Adam. Because Adam was condemned to death became mortal. we by birth as being human beings of the same nature are all born mortal. We sin because we are mortal. I Cor 15:56.
Because we were never imputed Adam's sin or guilt, we were not imputed righteous either. Christ was Incarnate meaning He was both God and man. He took on our humanity, our human natures and by His resurrection gave life, overcame that condemnation of death. I Cor 15:20-22 is a explicit summary of that correction. And Heb 2:14-16 explains why also.

As long as you continue to use western theology taken over from the Romans you will continue to totally misunderstand salvation in its entirety.
Because you don't understand clearly what Christ did for mankind, you also fail to fully understand man's response. You will continually conflate all works with "works of the law", totally dismissing that there are "works of faith".

My question would be - are there some believers who cannot apostacize while most have the capabiltiy/ability to do so? My assumption is that you hold to OSAS as well.
Here are some who have apostacized. You have the parable of the sower. Of the four categories, the last three were believers. This parable is so important that it is found in Matt, Mark and Luke. So important that Jesus gives us the explanation.
Demas: II Tim 4:10, Prodigal Son -Luke 15:11-32, Hymenaeus & Philetus II Tim 2:17-18, Young Widows - I Tim 5:14-15,, Money became their god - I Tim 6:5-10, Servant who backslides - Luke 12:45-46,.

These are just a few more well known examples in scripture of believers who fell away, the only example here of one returning is the prodigal son. There are some 100+ verses of warning to believers to hold fast, to remain faithful and other exhortations or ways to fall away.

Nice post. I'd only say that in Catholcism the Latin word for "justify" means just that, to make just or rightoeouss, which is why Clare opposes the Catholic position of infused/imparted righteousness, claiming that the Latin "justificare" translates "dikaiosis" erronously.

 

[Clare73]

Nice post. I'd only say that in Catholcism the Latin word for "justify" means just that, to make just or rightoeouss, which is why Clare opposes the Catholic position of infused/imparted righteousness, claiming that the Latin "justificare" translates "dikaiosis" erronously.

Are you not aware that the NT is not about the Latin, it's about the Greek, that Jerome did not pen the NT, he translated it from the Greek.

That means the Latin is to be brought into agreement with the Greek, the Greek is not to be brought into agreement with the Latin.

And in the Greek, dikaiosis is a forensic righteousness--a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of rightwise (righteous) standing with God's justice, whereas
imparted righteousness occurs in sanctification, by obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Faith gets the tree planted.
Works, i.e. "fruits" tell you what kind of tree it is.
A saved tree.

 

[fhansen]

Are you not aware that the NT is not about the Latin, it's about the Greek, that Jerome did not pen the NT, he translated it from the Greek.

That means the Latin is to be brought into agreement with the Greek, the Greek is not to be brought into agreement with the Latin.

And in the Greek, dikaiosis is a forensic righteousness--a sentence of acquittal of guilt, a declaration of rightwise (righteous) standing with God's justice, whereas
imparted righteousness occurs in sanctification, by obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19).

Are you not aware that Christ's purpose is to reconcile man with God into a union initiated by faith and bound by love which is the essence and source of our justice/righteousness, and the fulfillment of the law? The gospel screams that only God, not man, can make man just so that he no longer falls under the condemnation of sin, i.e. death.

 

[Der Alte]

Just presenting Scripture in context as it is cherry picked and posted. As scripture warns:
James 3:1 (ESV)
3 Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Souls are at stake.

I commend your efforts trying to inform certain groups how important the context of scripture is. I often point that out to certain folks.

 

[Michie]

I commend your efforts trying to inform certain groups how important the context of scripture is. I often point that out to certain folks.

Let me tell you how much I admire your efforts. It’s not something you want to let go when it comes to souls.

 

[Clare73]

Are you not aware that Christ's purpose is to reconcile man with God into a union initiated by faith and bound by love which is the essence and source of our justice/righteousness, and the fulfillment of the law? The gospel screams that only God, not man, can make man just so that he no longer falls under the condemnation of sin, i.e. death.

Non-responsive to my question. . .

 

[fhansen]

Non-responsive to my question. . .

Nope, not so: "only God, not man, can make man just so that he no longer falls under the condemnation of sin, i.e. death." Because of what Christ did a believer now has the righteousness to overcome the sin that would otherwise earn him death. Without that gift of actual righteousness given to us, we remain sinners.
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Then, in case there's any doubt, Romans 5:19 uses two words that can only be translated as made righteous.
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (dikaioi katastathēsontai)

 

[Clare73]

Are you not aware that Christ's purpose is to reconcile man with God into a union initiated by faith and bound by love which is the essence and source of our justice/righteousness, and the fulfillment of the law? The gospel screams that only God, not man, can make man just so that he no longer falls under the condemnation of sin, i.e. death.

Nope, not so: "only God, not man, can make man just so that he no longer falls under the condemnation of sin, i.e. death." Because of what Christ did a believer now has the righteousness to overcome the sin that would otherwise earn him death. Without that gift of actual righteousness given to us, we remain sinners.
"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

Then, in case there's any doubt, Romans 5:19 uses two words that can only be translated as made righteous.

Not quite. . .

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." (dikaioi katastathēsontai)

Dikaioi is a form of dikaiosis = declaration of right standing with God's justice, while
katastathesontai = to constitute (i.e., to place, to station--appoint--ordain to a position); sentence of acquittal of guilt,
both being a forensic righteousness.
Actual righteousness is dikaiosune, as in Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19

 

[fhansen]

Not quite. . .

Dikaioi is a form of dikaiosis = declaration of right standing with God's justice, while
katastathesontai = to constitute (i.e., to place, to station--appoint--ordain to a position); sentence of acquittal of guilt,
both being a forensic righteousness.
Actual righteousness is dikaiosune, as in Ro 6:16, Ro 6:19

Nope, dikaioi simply means just or righteous. Katastathesontai=will be made. The problem is that translators like to filter their theology into the definitions.

Why argue with it anyway? God's purpose in all this isn't to just suddenly pretend that some men are righteous when they're not, but to draw and move you into true rightouness, into being the creature He created you to be. It consists of more than forgivness of sin, but also the triumphing over sin. And this begins with the first right or just step, that of faith in Him, recognizing Him as our God again, the opposite of Adam's act of disobedience which was to deny His godhood. Justification is the beginning of a journey that's to end in the full knowledge of and union with God, the very purpose of our existence.

 

[Clare73]

Nope, dikaioi simply means just or righteous. Katastathesontai=will be made. The problem is that translators like to filter their theology into the definitions.

It's not about translators. . .it's about Greek definitions, which in the case of katastathesontai = to constitute.

Why argue with it anyway?

So why do you?

For the same reason that authoritative NT apostolic teaching presents it.

 

[fhansen]

It's not about translators. . .it's about Greek definitions.

Exactly-and transaltors arent necessarily "precise" in their defintions.

So why do you?

For the same reason that authoritative NT apostolic teaching presents it.

Nah, just your non-authoritative somewhat incomplete and selective interpretation.