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Pity the poor paraplegics and quadrplegics who cannot do anything other than "sit on their butts". I guess they can't be saved.
A very tasteless and fraudulent comment that completely misses the point.
I agree. However, I think you miss the point concerning what constitutes faith. Faith is not mere intellectual assent with facts. Most people are quite comfortable with giving such assent and thinking that because they have done so they are thus saved. This is not restricted to Christianity but seems to be an entirely human condition found across the entire spectrum of belief systems. Faith is what actually drives a person. It is what the person, in his very core is made of. If one says he believes he is the reincarnation of Napoleon Bonaparte, as some have in the past, and it is his actual faith, then he will live the life of Bonaparte to the best of his understanding. However, if a person is paid to play the part in a theatrical setting, he will do his utmost to portray the character so that others are convinced that he is Bonaparte, but outside of the theater he will live his life according to his core beliefs and will not simulate the role he has chosen for the theater.
How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?
Suppose a married man is on fire for the Lord. He spends much of his time spreading the gospel, serving the poor, and generally being a good Christian. Then he starts having an affair. He simultaneously loves the Lord but also gives into the desires of the flesh. He says he still believes Jesus is the savior and he truly does believe Jesus is the savior. He just can't pass up the huge temptation. Does he have true saving faith or not? He thinks he does - do you think so?
]How much sin can be committed or how much lack of good deeds can occur before God says that the person does not have a genuine saving faith?
]
God can do whatever he wants, saintboniface, but it is clear that even the just man falls seven times a day and that even saved believers do sin. That remains part of our nature, even though we are FORGIVEN. You continue to think in terms of earning salvation by being good enough, even though you don't have any idea what "good enough" amounts to.
That is true, and I think we can agree on it.Yes, GOD is the judge at the end of the day. Sinning and deliberate sin are two different things.
NOT if these works can either earn you salvation or fall short. If that is yout theology, "giving it a good try" obviously is not adequate. There has to be some direction or quota if that is what the church is going to tell people is the difference between salvation or being lost.My "good enough" is trying to live the way Jesus did.
NOT if these works can either earn you salvation or fall short. If that is your theology, "giving it a good try" obviously is not adequate. There has to be some direction or quota if that is what the church is going to tell people is the difference between salvation or being lost.
That was my question to you.What do you think we have to do to be saved?
That was my question to you.
Your church teaches that faith (sometimes) and works (always) are what saves.
"Saintboniface" named a few general categories of good works, but it seemed to me that this isn't much guidance for church members who are told that their salvation is dependent upon a lifetime of doing good deeds...which, by the way, many Catholics on this forum have reaffirmed. But, of course, none of them has been able to answer the very obvious questions of 'which acts, 'how many' and so on, that it will take. To me, this seems rather important, if you are one who accepts that church's theology as correct.
And...
Can I take a vacation from good works, or must I do a good work every day? Do I lose salvation for the period of time I'm not doing good works? Is it better to do good works up front to build up an account, or can I procrastinate as long as I dare?
And as I asked earlier, exactly what is a good work? If I was addicted to porn and break that addiction, is that a good work? If I dressed like a floozy before but then bought a nice, modest church dress, is that a good work? Or must good works be of a specific kind?
I think we all agree on this. Unfortunately, it doesn't help one bit in explaining what's expected of a person who DOES have the faith and belongs to a church that insists faith doesn't save but, rather, that works count towards salvation along with the faith.2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith.
Yep. That would seem to be the question we've been asking, all right."good" as God defines and judges 'good' not man/ religion/ denominations. so obedience to his work/will would be good .. as he defines it.. will produce his fruit which is GOOD to eat..
ok so like we may not see what he has put before us as good and or beneficial to anything in anyway in the short run especially . I mean David started just watching sheep, he killed a lion and oh then killed a giants , then was then singing to a demon possessed king , then running from a demon possessed king then hiding in caves with debtors and complainers , then did a job like a sheriff .
which of these jobs/ deeds / more faithful/ more spiritual and thus seems "good"er or looks like "good works"..... to you than the others ?
The churches that teach "works righteousness" do not consider faithfulness and trust to be "good works." They are referring instead to acts of charity and mercy.but they were all part of God redemption of David's inner life . Now what David did better than most was trust God through all of it , no matter how awful and hopeless it looked to him at times . and thus in that time frame he grew in his faithfulness and trust in the Lord. that was the good works.
Well, most Christians wouldn't agree to that. We do sin after conversion. As was noted by someone else, deliberate sin is another matter and would call the faith of that person into question if persistent, but the saved certainly do sin.faithful means not a sinner..
now the faithful will not sin( freak out , act out , weird out, do narcissistic , or nasty out ) while doing that work he has set before us to do... if we value that job or not we are to remain faithful in all the small things
That was my question to you.
Your church teaches that faith (sometimes) and works (always) are what saves.
"Saintboniface" named a few general categories of good works, but it seemed to me that this isn't much guidance for church members who are told that their salvation is dependent upon a lifetime of doing good deeds...which, by the way, many Catholics on this forum have reaffirmed. But, of course, none of them has been able to answer the very obvious questions of 'which acts, 'how many' and so on, that it will take. To me, this seems rather important, if you are one who accepts that church's theology as correct.
If so, it doesn't look like you are in any position to answer the question we've been asking about the Catholic churches and their position on works righteousness, so maybe "that's that," as they say. I started out talking with saintboniface about this and then it switched to your questions and comments, so maybe that accounts for the problem.My church teaches that faith (always) and works (follows) are what saves.
We do sin after conversion. As was noted by someone else, deliberate sin is another matter and would call the faith of that person into question if persistent, but the saved certainly do sin.
well but he also says " my people perish for a lack of knowledge.." and we aren't any different than they were . in that how much of what we sow and reap as sin after
we "convert " is done because we don't want to know his definitions either?
in God what we don't know will hurt us.
so
faithful means knowing what sin is by his definitions not ours.
like a faithful spouse... and unfaithful one.. everyone needs to learn what that means to the spouse..
but he only rewards the faithful as he defines it with his life / with more of life/ with more of him , and charity and mercy and forgiveness and ( all the fruits of the spirit) will be made evident some point in his process or you aren't on the process and need to get with him on that issue soon..
you hope...I think that the "problem" here is that you are thinking that "faithful" equates to sinlessness. It doesn't.
So that leads to a question of what is a good work and what is not, and whether an external observer can ever truly discern the difference.
Demas appears to have fooled Paul for quite a long while.
A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?
1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.
B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?
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