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What exactly is gained by re-enacting this argument over and over?
Both classic positions accept that salvation and better behaviour are inseparable. Neither side holds that we are saved by belief In the correct soterological model. The details are not going to be resolved by going over the same ground time and time again.
(FWIW, I think both have some handle on the truth and both are partly missing the point - salvation is becoming more fully human; more perfectly the image of God in and for his creation.
There's nothing there that we haven't covered already--many times.Hey if Martin Luther can say it I don't see you guys can't!!
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." - Ewald M. Plass, What Luther says" page 1509
There's nothing there that we haven't covered already--many times.
Works...they do not cause salvation..
I do not agree with your (mis)interpretation of its meaning, no.So you agree with that quote or not?
I do not agree with your (mis)interpretation of its meaning, no.
But that seems to be the standard operating procedure for Catholic theology these days--confuse the meaning by reinterpreting the wording. For example,
Women deacons? No, but women as "Eucharistic Ministers," yes.
Purgatory? No purgation anymore, but "purification" instead.
Divorce? No, but easy "annullments" that accomplish the same thing.
You're familiar with all of those, of course. So also with trying to make Works be efficacious. But good Works are NOT efficacious when the issue is salvation.
Am I? Then what would you call someone who comes onto a discussion board and issues "yes or no" demands instead of discussing?You are impossible. The statement clearly says that works do not cause salvation so you wouldn't be admitting that works were efficacious for salvation.
That's the role historically played by deacons, as well as visiting the sick in their homes, which "Eucharistic ministers" also are assigned to do.An extraordinary minister of holy communion distributes communion, that's it. A mechanical act.
It is with most Catholics nowadays., clergy included. That's evident on all the threads here where they labor soooo hard to redefine it into something nice and short and not at all punitive.I didn't know that purgatory was yesterday's news
$800 + a statement for the record...and it's a done deal. I'd call that relatively easy (and lucrative).While the number of annulments may provide some inference that they are easy - the real test of easiness would have to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
Am I? Then what would you call someone who comes onto a discussion board and issues "yes or no" demands instead of discussing?
But if you must be placated, I agree that works do not cause salvation.
That's the role historically played by deacons, as well as visiting the sick in their homes, which "Eucharistic ministers" also are assigned to do.
It is with most Catholics nowadays., clergy included. That's evident on all the threads here where they labor soooo hard to redefine it into something nice and short and not at all punitive.
$800 + a statement for the record...and it's a done deal. I'd call that relatively easy (and lucrative).
Well, you are correct about that. But at the same time, it gets tiresome playing little games with words and dealing with gotcha gimmicks when having a calm, fact-based discussion is supposed to be the objective here. Understand?I honestly thought you were more versed in Catholicism than this.
Hmm. I seldom hear Pope John Paul II described as a "dissenter." Interesting.Only the dissenters (clergy included) labor to redefine purgatory (I'll take your word for it that they do).
I guess we could all come up with our ideal concept of what we'd do if we were God for a day, but all that matters is what God actually did provide--and it's often not what our society thinks is fair or equalitarian.I think purgatory is an awesome show of God's justice and mercy - you can be forgiven and have eternal life but you do the crime you pay the time!!
Oh, I'll agree that a few million dollars a year for doing a clerical task might not be the only motivation, and I'm more concerned that annulments are divorces by a different name, regardless of whether or not a fee is charged. But I think even you have to admit that such a fee is exploitive, considering that nothing like it is charged for weddings or baptisms.I know for certain that not all dioceses charge to examine a case of nullity. I'm not sure that any charge. You can't possibly believe that motivation is for an easy $800.
I don't recognize it offhand, but I'm willing to believe he did, sure. Luther was a great one for thinking aloud and seeing the grey areas in life that many other people miss. I'd recommend that you not take a single sentence out of context if you want to know Luther. He is truly one of most important figures in all Western history, not just of Church history.Do you believe Martin Luther actually made the statement shown above?
Well, you are correct about that. But at the same time, it gets tiresome playing little games with words and dealing with gotcha gimmicks when having a calm, fact-based discussion is supposed to be the objective here. Understand?
There is no gotcha game going here. In fact, I though I was just undoing Luther's little word game. The game that allowed Luther to diminish works. I thought some form of my original statements (or Luther's) would be acceptable because it still makes the distinction between the cause of salvation.
Hey if Martin Luther can say it I don't see you guys can't!!
"Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life." - Ewald M. Plass, What Luther says" page 1509
Of course I found this on Wikipedia, I don't have Plass' book, and it always seems dubious when sayings aren't found in an actual text.
I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?
1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.
B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?
I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.
Helping the poor can appear to be a good work on the surface but if the work is done for the wrong reasons, it is not a good work of faith and it proves the lack of faith.
Worship of God is a good work but scripture tells us of some who sit in the front of worship services to make the appearance of being holy. Their worship is, in reality, self worship.
We find our salvation through faith and that faith is shown through following Jesus Christ and not what we think following Jesus is. God has given us his Holy Spirit and those that walk in the Spirit will do the works which God has set before them.
God Bless
Whatever works God tells a person to do. Each person should search God's Holy Spirit to understand his will in their life and then seek to follow the path of salvation.So, what ARE the particular good works that will save anyone?
I personally don't like to enumerate what God wills for his children. That gives the sense that following those things lead to salvation and that other things are not needed. That would be like the Jewish Law. God's will is so much deeper than that.Stopping to help an injured stranger? OK. What about buying Girl Scout cookies or contributing to an "Animal rights" organization? Which works will be counted by God towards one's salvation??
Whatever works God tells a person to do. Each person should search God's Holy Spirit to understand his will in their life and then seek to follow the path of salvation.
Is there someone who doesn't mind and has the answer?I personally don't like to enumerate what God wills for his children.
Then we'll stipulate that this is not what we're discussing or suggesting.That gives the sense that following those things lead to salvation and that other things are not needed.
It is not for me to tell you what God calls you to do. When we each face our judgment, we each cannot say that another told us to do this or that because we are supposed to trust God's will, not another person's. If we have faith, we will seek God's will for our own life and follow.so....no one know what kinds of deeds matter, at least as they relate to earning salvation? That seems awfully vague when we're talking about a subject that is so critical. Just do what you think is good to do.
The Holy Spirit. Scripture says that Jesus will take what his Father gives him and tell it to the Holy Spirit to give to us. If we don't know the Holy Spirit well enough to understand God's will for us, then we really need humble ourselves further and learn to walk in the Spirit.Is there someone who doesn't mind and has the answer?
I do understand that works are needed for salvation but what I must point to is the proper works. Good works which lead to salvation are only the works which God gives each to do, not works which man believes are good.
Helping the poor can appear to be a good work on the surface but if the work is done for the wrong reasons, it is not a good work of faith and it proves the lack of faith.
Worship of God is a good work but scripture tells us of some who sit in the front of worship services to make the appearance of being holy. Their worship is, in reality, self worship.
We find our salvation through faith and that faith is shown through following Jesus Christ and not what we think following Jesus is. God has given us his Holy Spirit and those that walk in the Spirit will do the works which God has set before them.
God Bless
All right then, if you don't know, who does?It is not for me to tell you what God calls you to do.
We've already addressed this. What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.The Holy Spirit. Scripture says that Jesus will take what his Father gives him and tell it to the Holy Spirit to give to us. If we don't know the Holy Spirit well enough to understand God's will for us, then we really need humble ourselves further and learn to walk in the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit. If you have this Spirit, you should be able to understand what God calls you to do.All right then, if you don't know, who does?
Have you taken the time to get away from all else and just connect with God? When you do, there will be no hunch. When you allow the Holy Spirit to be your guide, you will change.We've already addressed this. What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.
Love just as Jesus called you to love. When you are walking in the Spirit, you will be doing God's will without having to look at some list. Babes who are still drinking milk need to be told how to do righteous deeds.The church may teach works-righteousness, but it has no idea what works or how many of them or of what kind?
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