Works Relation to Salvation

[Leaf473]

Lol, persistence, (nothing wrong with that). Well, for starters, with a very simple horizontal sundial, and with that you can find geographic north within a few days and perfect the placement of the sundial, (by shadow plotting). Then you will be able to count days and the astronomical equinoxes will shadow plot as a nearly perfect straight line from due west to due east, especially when the astronomical equinox occurs during the daytime.

In a matter of very few years the antediluvian patriarchs would have known that the earth was spinning and they would have known the length of the solar tropical year to at least within a day. They didn't need computers or calculators. Obviously then the year will likely be set to start from some time around either one of the equinoxes or one of the solstices. It probably was not the same in Egypt, (possibly around summer solstice in Egypt, which in ancient times was about a month before the Nile would begin to flood), and that's likely why the Most High tells Mosheh when the new year is to commence for Yisrael in Exodus 12:2, (Mosheh was instructed in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, Acts 7:22, (which no doubt included a knowledge and understanding of the Great Pyramid)).

So it's based on the equinoxes? Which one is the start of the year?
_____________
Edit: so I see now you also say solstices, I missed that the first time.

But which equinox or which solstice? Or are you saying we don't know today?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Obedience leads to righteousness, sin leads to death, the path we choose is our own....

Yes, sin leads to death. All sin leads to death. So, if you sin every day, or every other day, or every 3rd day of your life, and you repent every time, and you are forgiven every time, did you escape death because of your "obedience that leads to righteousness"? The only possible answer is, "No".

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

"22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Ro 6:22–23)​

Being set free from sin and escaping death and becoming a slave of God and having the fruit of holiness and possessing everlasting life is not evidenced by sinning every day, or every other day, or every third day followed by repentance and forgiveness. It is a change of nature that distances us from the sins of our flesh as far as the east is from the west, translates us out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, and makes us a child of God instead of a child of the devil. This is not earned through sinning and repenting. It is a free gift of God that we cannot earn by any means.

Seems you are underestimating many of the teachings of God's Word John 14:15-18, Mat 15:3-9 Mat 19:17-19 1 John 5:3, Romans 3:31, Rev 14:15, Rev 22:14-15 1 Cor 7:19 James 2:10-12 and so many others.

Let's just take James 2:10 -- "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all." If you keep "the whole law" all the time and "stumble on one point" one time a day, or every other day, or every third day, then you are guilty of breaking all the law. Your keeping the whole law does not give you any credit. Your one single slip breaks the whole law. So, this should be evidence to you that obeying the law will never be your path to righteousness.

All of us have sinned and no one is made righteous by obeying God's law, which means we can save ourselves, only Jesus can save through faith. We do not obey God's law to become righteous, we obey through love and faith which leads to righteousness.

Righteousness through obedience to the law is illusive. If you could do it all the time without fail, then you would get righteousness that way. But breaking the whole law once a day, every other day, or every third day of your life then repenting and being forgiven does not lead to a person's righteousness through his obedience.

There is no scripture that says we can willfully sin and live. Jesus said this in His very own Words Mat 7:21-23. If we find ourselves breaking God's law, its always best to confess and repent, which Jesus promises to cleanse us from all unrighteousness 1 John 1:9 and through Jesus He can help us obey Him John 14:15-18 we just need to cooperate. When I pray I always ask for more love and faith to Him and help me overcome my sins. I trust Jesus at His Word that all things are possible, including overcoming sin with the help of Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us its possible, Rev 14:12, we should trust God's Word and not make our devil bigger than our God.

You're free to believe we can live in unrepented sin and be saved, but its just not biblical. Heb 10:26-30 Rev 22:14-15, Mat 7:21-23

Hebrews 12 tells us plainly that the Heavenly Father corrects those who belong to Him and that those who do not experience His chastening do not belong to Him. This is a better test of salvation than the one you propose.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hebrews 12 tells us plainly that the Heavenly Father corrects those who belong to Him and that those who do not experience His chastening do not belong to Him. This is a better test of salvation than the one you propose.

The one I propose is based on scripture being in submission and obedient to God through love and faith 1 John 5:3 John 14:15, Exo 20:6 Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12, which leads to reconciliation Revelation 22:14

The one you seem to be proposing is that we do not need to obey God's law, we should not repent for our sins when breaking God's law, and we do not try to overcome which is sadly going to lead one down the wrong path, if we trust the scriptures. Pro 28:13 Heb 10:26-30, Mat 7:21-23, Rev 22:15 1 John 2:4

Do you not think when the Father corrects, He tells us how to do that? Goes back to what Jesus taught- Matthew 4:17 John 14:15, Mat 19:17-19, Mat 15:3-9 Mat 5:19-30 Mat 4:4 John 15:10 1 John 1:9

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Never said anything different. The difference is, you seem to believe we do not need to repent for our sins when falling and that its impossible to overcome. This is what Jesus taught...Matthew 4:17

Hebrews 12 defines what repentance means for Christians. God corrects us when we go astray, and we come into line with His will. It does not say that Christians who refuse to be corrected lose their salvation, it says those who do not experience God's correction are not His. Every saved person experiences God's correction.

Salvation is from sin Mat 1:21

Explain how a person who sins every day, every other day, or every 3 days is "free from sin" like you interpret this verse.

I'm not sure if you are reading my posts

yes, I am.

, but our righteous is not through God's law, even though they are righteous Psa 119:172 Romans 7:12 NIV We obey God's law though love and faith which leads to righteousness.

I keep on objecting to "We obey God's law... which leads to righteousness". But you don't hear me. Obedience to God's law only leads to righteousness if a person obeys all Gods laws all the time without fail. Otherwise, obedience does not produce righteousness.

All God's law does is shows us our sin Romans 3:20 Romans 7:7 and our need for Jesus for His forgiveness and grace when we go to Him earnestly pray for forgiveness of our sins and ask Jesus for a new heart that will obey Him through love and faith. Romans 3:31 Rev 14:12 John 14:15 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6

And you get a new heart every time you sin and repent again?

If we can sin freely, then there would have been no need for Jesus great sacrifice and His sacrifice would be in vain.

This seems to get to the heart of the issue. You don't want to sin, but you do. Every time you sin, you accept His forgiveness. You never say this causes His great sacrifice to be in vain, even though you still sin over and over and over again. This POV completely misses the mark.

You seem to miss the point, that we can disobey God and sin and be saved, and there is no biblical teaching for this.

You seem to miss the point that you yourself sin regularly and consider yourself to be saved (unless you are saying you are without sin, in which case we need to have a different conversation). Am I misunderstanding you?

I believe through Jesus we can overcome. Scripture tells us its possible, even though we all have sinned, we can overcome just like David, Moses, Abraham and so forth shown in Hebrews 11. God would not ask us to do something that is impossible to do. John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and even gives us His Spirit so we don't have to do it alone John 14:15-18, we just need to cooperate. If we stumble along the way, His blood covers us when we earnestly confess and repent. Living in sin is not what is going to reconcile us back to God Rev 22:14-15

"Living in sin" is an interesting distraction. Liberty, license, and legalism have a direct connection in Scripture:

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. (Ga 5:13)​

We are called to liberty, we must resist legalism, and we must not use our liberty to gratify the evil desires of the flesh.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hebrews 12 defines what repentance means for Christians. God corrects us when we go astray, and we come into line with His will. It does not say that Christians who refuse to be corrected lose their salvation, it says those who do not experience God's correction are not His. Every saved person experiences God's correction.

Explain how a person who sins every day, every other day, or every 3 days is "free from sin" like you interpret this verse.

yes, I am.

I keep on objecting to "We obey God's law... which leads to righteousness". But you don't hear me. Obedience to God's law only leads to righteousness if a person obeys all Gods laws all the time without fail. Otherwise, obedience does not produce righteousness.

And you get a new heart every time you sin and repent again?

This seems to get to the heart of the issue. You don't want to sin, but you do. Every time you sin, you accept His forgiveness. You never say this causes His great sacrifice to be in vain, even though you still sin over and over and over again. This POV completely misses the mark.

You seem to miss the point that you yourself sin regularly and consider yourself to be saved (unless you are saying you are without sin, in which case we need to have a different conversation). Am I misunderstanding you?

"Living in sin" is an interesting distraction. Liberty, license, and legalism have a direct connection in Scripture:

For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. (Ga 5:13)​

We are called to liberty, we must resist legalism, and we must not use our liberty to gratify the evil desires of the flesh.

Sadly, you keep using your words against the Word of God as if they are equal. All of your arguments have been you arguing against the plain scriptures.

The law of liberty is the Ten Commandments as James quotes and contrasts exclusively from them. James 2:10-12. It's called the law of liberty because it means we have overcome the bondage of sin and walk freely in Christ. Walking in Christ there is no condemnation Romans 8:1 and those in Christ are not an enmity against God's law Romans 8:7 which is kept through love and faith Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Those who are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God Rom 8:8

I'm sorry, you feel that it’s impossible to obey God, I don't think that it is through Jesus Christ. John 14:15-18 The bible says its possible Rev 14:12 and we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent 1 John 1:9 if one thinks we can’t obey God, perhaps pray for a little more faith or perhaps a lifestyle change, I'm not sure, but God can help, we need to take up our cross and deny ourselves daily. Luke 9:23

 

[Leaf473]

I think the law of Liberty is
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Which has the corollary of
Don't show partiality.

I think that's what James is saying. If you feel like you're doing good keeping the whole law, but you show partiality in your church service, then you're actually guilty of the whole law.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James is only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments and says it is what we will be judged by as it is what reveals sin Romans 7:7

James calls the greatest commandments the Royal Law James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. Love to God and love to man is keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:2-3

Notice he only quoted one of the greatest commandments, does that mean love to God is obsolete from the other greatest commandment? Of course not, this same principle applies to the He who said not to murder and not commit adultery to everything God said in this unit of Ten. Exo 20 breaking one, we break them all.

 

[Leaf473]

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James is only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments

Well, James also quotes from Leviticus in that passage

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:8 - New King James Version

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

www.biblegateway.com

...and says it is what we will be judged by as it is what reveals sin Romans 7:7

I believe Paul wrote the book of Romans, not James.

Pasting ideas together from different letters could lead to wrong conclusions imo.

James calls the greatest commandments the Royal Law James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. Love to God and love to man is keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:2-3

Notice he only quoted one of the greatest commandments, does that mean love to God is obsolete from the other greatest commandment? Of course not, this same principle applies to the He who said not to murder and not commit adultery to everything God said in this unit of Ten. Exo 20 breaking one, we break them all.

Well, James says "the entire law...".

 

[Leaf473]

Say, SB, do you believe "the entire law" is only the Ten Commandments?

 

[Leaf473]

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

James is only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments and says it is what we will be judged by...

...as it is what reveals sin Romans 7:7

Do you believe that only the Ten Commandments reveal sin? As in, there is no other passage in the entire Old Testament that reveals sin?

James calls the greatest commandments the Royal Law James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. Love to God and love to man is keeping the commandments of God 1 John 5:2-3

Notice he only quoted one of the greatest commandments, does that mean love to God is obsolete from the other greatest commandment? Of course not, this same principle applies to the He who said not to murder and not commit adultery to everything God said in this unit of Ten. Exo 20 breaking one, we break them all.

Peace be with you, my sister

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, James also quotes from Leviticus in that passage

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:8 - New King James Version

If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;

www.biblegateway.com

I believe Paul wrote the book of Romans, not James.

Pasting ideas together from different letters could lead to wrong conclusions imo.



Well, James says "the entire law...".

Weird, you accuse someone of pasting ideas together because one is not staying inside a singular author, yet you quote the greatest commandment from Leviticus that James quotes. Both Paul and James quote God from the Ten Commandments directly from Exodus and that's "pasting ideas" as if the Ten Commandments means something different in different chapters, interesting way of interpreting scripture, not the way we are instructed 2 Tim 3:16.

 

[Leaf473]

Weird, you accuse someone of pasting ideas together because one is not staying inside a singular author, yet you quote the greatest commandment from Leviticus that James quotes.

Right, I was quoting from James. How is that weird?

Both Paul and James quote the Ten Commandments directly from Exodus and that's "pasting ideas" interesting way of interpreting scripture.

No, that's not what I said

No point in further discussion. Take care

There's always great point in talking about the law.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 6:6-7 - New King James Version

“And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Trying to say that only the Ten Commandments is the entire law that James is talking about or that only the 10 give us knowledge of sin doesn't work imo - if that's what anybody here is saying.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:32 - New King James Version

“Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[HIM]

I think the law of Liberty is
You shall love your neighbor as yourself

Which has the corollary of
Don't show partiality.

I think that's what James is saying. If you feel like you're doing good keeping the whole law, but you show partiality in your church service, then you're actually guilty of the whole law.

. The law of liberty is first mentioned in Chapter one and context says different.

 

[Leaf473]

. The law of liberty is first mentioned in Chapter one and context says different.

That's a good point

What do you believe is the law of liberty?

 

[HIM]

That's a good point

What do you believe is the law of liberty?

I’m at work but got a second . If Memory serves me right it says that one is looking into the perfect law liberty. So if we backed up in through the proceeding verses it will tell you. Let me know what you think.

 

[Leaf473]

I’m at work but got a second . If Memory serves me right it says that one is looking into the perfect law liberty. So if we backed up in through the proceeding verses it will tell you. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for the input, have a good day at work

It looks to me like it's the entire law that James is calling the law of Liberty. Maybe he means keeping the entire law in a way that is in accordance with freedom?

Bible Gateway passage: James 1:21 - New American Standard Bible

Therefore, ridding yourselves of all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[daq]

So it's based on the equinoxes? Which one is the start of the year?
_____________
Edit: so I see now you also say solstices, I missed that the first time.

But which equinox or which solstice? Or are you saying we don't know today?

The book of Exodus makes it clear that the year starts in the spring, in the month which is later called Abib, or Aviv, (Deut 16:1). This is basically the same month which Judaism now calls Nisan, except that Nisan wanders within the calendar much more due to the fact that the Jewish-Babylonian lunisolar calendar falls behind eleven days every year and needs to add an extra intercalation month approximately seven times in nineteen years. See what I mean? rules, rules, rules, lol.

 

[HIM]

Thanks for the input, have a good day at work

Thank you. May the Lord be with us all.

It looks to me like it's the entire law that James is calling the law of Liberty. Maybe he means keeping the entire law in a way that is in accordance with freedom?

Bible Gateway passage: James 1:21 - New American Standard Bible

Therefore, ridding yourselves of all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

www.biblegateway.com

James starts the chapter saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls. But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us, that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[Leaf473]

The book of Exodus makes it clear that the year starts in the spring, in the month which is later called Abib, or Aviv, (Deut 16:1). This is basically the same month which Judaism now calls Nisan, except that Nisan wanders within the calendar much more due to the fact that the Jewish-Babylonian lunisolar calendar falls behind eleven days every year and needs to add an extra intercalation month approximately seven times in nineteen years. See what I mean? rules, rules, rules, lol.

It doesn't sound like it has to be complicated, though. The true Nisan would start at the spring equinox, with a new month starting every 30 days. Then of course you just have to have some kind of makeup of 5 days or so at the end, I assume.

So if I'm understanding you right, Isaiah 66 is saying that starting at the spring equinox and every 30 days after that we'll go up to Jerusalem. And then on a separate cycle, we'll also go up to Jerusalem every 7th Day.