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WORKS OF CARL SAGAN....

Nathan Poe

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freespirit2001 said:
I love your offerings Nathan Poe...(!)....What's out there, of course, is a lot of "lizard-skinned" authorities....on the bamboozle...
I think I'm being insulted, but fortunately, your posts are far to incoherent to be certain...


Very poetic, but it doesn't make Sagan any less of an Atheist.

"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" --Sigmund Freud (Another prominent Atheist, or at least agnostic...)

Reflections on the ocean are also deeply oceanographic. You're trying to plug God into the gaps where there are no gaps. Give it up!


Walt Whitman, Henri Thoreau...to name a few...artists as well....

My Life Is Like a Stroll Upon the Beach Henri Thoreau

<snip>
Henry David Thoreau. A deeply spiritual transcendentalist, but not someone who would be claimed as a "Christian."

" The Interval between the events are more significant than the events themselves." ----Albert Einstein
Yes, yes, and music is the space between the notes. You keep saying this, but is there a point?

That was the point.... the tape was proof that the device had actually worked, but the government chose to cover up that proof, and write off the device as a hoax.




I wish this had something to do with anything... I really do.
 
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freespirit2001

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Thank you many times over for your objectivity and wisdom....I am disappointed in this technology that I can't read peoples messages through their eyes and body messages...I would have loved to inquire further into your personal information...you sound so knowledgable and interesting...

I've been really meaning to say to others who have contributed so much information and insight to this thread: " God Bless the Skeptics ! " There has been so much great and wonderful insight...and what I wasn't aware of at the time I started this, I'm more aware of now...But I am glad this technology does bridge such great distances of people.

When I started reading carl sagan in the 70's more information was out there that might have suggested he had great reserves about the facts from science's point of view about evolution...but of course what was written 10-15 years ago...obviously is not with us now...so here I am to say ( with my little lantern in my avatar) some things in life are made to be proprietary---"Hushed Up" ---much as Ellie's experience with the aliens in the movie CONTACT....

I more disturbed to see Carl Sagan's quotes on really radical RADICAL evolutionist's web sites however...I would assume they would be on fanatical religious web sites in showing this guy as the atheist---who believes in evolution....

I understand you do not want to see science given a bad service...or be compared with religion?
 
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freespirit2001

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Nathan Poe...again I say " God Bless The Skeptics! " and thank you for contributing so much great information....

The quote on the " goal of fasting is for INNER UNITY"... what it means is that it helps to promote deep listening skills and discernment of knowledge. In other words, its wise not to build good reasoning abilities on unhealthy socio-emotional foundations....This quote by Thomas Merton ( a christian) also a suggests a good analyzing tool...Its from Rollo May's book Freedom and Destiny*

Wonder and skepticism, I suppose, should be natural healthy passions of life....

_____________


Wonder and skeptism, from what I gather from Carl Sagan's two chapters: " My teachers" and " The most precious thing" ( From The Demon-Haunted World ), inspired the works of Carl Sagan:

" All our science, measured against reality' is primitive and childlike---and yet it is the most precious thing we have."

Albert Einstein

from " THE DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD---SCIENCE AS A CANDLE IN THE DARK ", Carl Sagan



" My parents were not scientists. They knew almost nothing about science. But in introducing me simultaneously to SKEPTICISM and to WONDER, they taught me the two uneasily cohabitaing modes of thought that are central to the scientific method."

Carl Sagan
__________________



*FREEDOM AND DESTINY ---IX" The Significance of the Pause" Rollo May
 
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freespirit2001

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Nathan Poe.....I wasn't referring to you as one of the "lizard skinned" authorites....but I had left the quote about ...."The Intervals between the events are more significant than the events themselves..." to foolsparade

.........yes....THAT QUOTE IS ABOUT MUSIC... you validated that...

Eistein used to the play the violin...music and math are both universal languages....I'm inspired by the fact the scientist, Einstein, playing the violin...

I like these quote about music in thoughts of Einstein's love of the violin:

"Music is the most romantic of all arts---one might say, the most genuinely romantic one---for its sole subject is infinite. Music discloses to man an unknown realm, a world in which he leaves behind him all definite feelings, to surrender himself to an inexpressible longing."
Eta Hoffman (1776-1872)
____________

" Don't worry about saving these songs.
And if one of the instruments breaks. It doesn't matter.
We have fallen into a place where everything is music."
Rumi 13th cen Sufi poet

It still leaves me wandering by the ocean, I suppose...like "Ellie" in the movie to you...but not as a scientist....




( Its also from FREEDOM AND DESTINY IX "The Significance of the Pause"
 
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freespirit2001

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In thoughts of Carl Sagan and science:

PERCEIVING THE SUBTLE Lao Tze

The mystery of the valley is immortal;
It is known as the Subtle female.
The gateway of the Subtle female
Is the source of Heaven and Earth.


Everlasting, endless, it appears to exist.
Its usefulness comes with no effort.

_____________


THE WAY OF SUBTLE INFLUENCE Lao Tze


Superior leaders are those whose existence is merely known;
The next best are loved and honored;
The next are respected;
And the next are ridiculed.

Those who lack belief
Will not in turn be believed.
But when the command comes from afar
And the work is done, the goal achieved,
The people say, " We did it naturally. "
 
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freespirit2001

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ex-xian said:
What point exactly are you trying to make with these posts?
Although Carl Sagan was known as " The Mr.Roger's of Science"* much of his work, I feel, has to be appreciated with a discerning perception and outside of the emotional-hype of the social influences around us...his messages are subtle if you study and investigate his work....

In the DEMON-HAUNTED WORLD, Science As A Candle in the Dark, Carl Sagan mentions over and over:

" Avoidable human misery is more often caused not so much by stupidity as by ignorance, particularly our ignorance about ourselves."

" How can we make intelligent decisions about our increasing technology-driven lives if we don't understand the diference between myths of pseudoscience, New Age thinking, fundamental emotionalism and testable hypotheses of science?"

(This all has to do with how we think and how we perceive the life around us---Much of it is the "Why" "How" "Who" "When" and "What"---that affects about our attitudes, the perceptions and beliefs of the life around us, our values of education, our own self-awarenesses....)

Some quotes I have added out of my humanities studies as "tools of discernment and perception"....Another one is from Francis Bacon:

"The human understanding is no dry light, but receives infusion from will and affections; whence proceed sciences which may be called "sciences as one would." For what a man had rather were true he more readily believes. Therefore he rejects difficult things from impatience of research; sober things, because they narrow hope; the deeper things of nature, from superstition; the light of experience, from arrogance and pride; things not commonly believed, out of deference to the opinion of the vulgar. Numberless in short are the ways, and sometimes imperceptible, in which the affections color and infect the understanding."

Francis Bacon (1620) Novum Organon
____________


In my Business Managment Class, the lines of reasoning that Francis Bacon uses in the quote above, to describe certain behaviors that limit good reasoning are called:

Bounded Rationality- a concept suggesting that decision makers are limited by their values and unconscious reflexes and habits---(personal biases affect how one interprets the facts---thus it affects their reasoning and good decision-making sills)

Escalation of committment- decision-makers staying with a decision (or opinion) even when it appears to be wrong

Stacificing-tendency to search for alternatives only until one is found that meets some minimum standard of sufficiency..( pre-judging a senario before gathering or reading all the facts)

Risk propensity--extent to which a decision-maker is willing to gamble to make a decision ( or draw an assumption for some kind of action )

Cognitive Dissonance--caused when an individual has conflicting attitudes (Its an ATTITUDE WORD)

I thought this was an interesting contrast to the quote of Fransis Bacon about faulty reasoning ---These are the faulty thinking and reasoning behaviors that can be fatal to business managment...
_______________


Faulty thinking makes for faulty assumptions and prejudices,and faulty decision-making skills....


_______________

Thats my two-cents about behaviors that affect good reasoning and good decision-making abilities....
 
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freespirit2001

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Lucaspa...I'm still studying all your wonderful messages! But I beg to differ with your (opinion?) that Carl Sagan was an atheist. I have found in print...in his own words that HE IS NOT AN ATHEIST. It is not the point of this thread to put judgement or credibility on his works and his humanistic approaches to science by his personal beliefs about God...after all, this forum is open to both believers and non-believers...Its more interesting for me to gather more from his messages, that he is not an atheist...I also consider the faith of his parents as well in some discernment about his "considerations of faith" as a whole...but knowing he admitted he was not an athieist is a key...This does color some of my perspective about his humanistic values as a very creative and inspiring person and as a "Mr.Roger's of Science"...:

www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/System/8870/books/WashingtonPost

Washington Post:

Carl Sagan: "AN ATHEIST HAS TO KNOW A LOT MORE THAN I KNOW. AN ATHEIST IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THERE IS NO GOD."

FROM: "THE FINAL FRONTIER? ALL CARL SAGAN WANTS TO DO IS UNDERSTAND THE UNIVERSE. ALL HE NEEDS IS TIME."
Washington Post, May 30, 1996
Joel Achenbach

I don't feel he has colored science with atheist beliefs---that has been what I've been trying to suggest and I hope to prove in this thread...He left us messages in contrary to what some see about the atheism of the times---as an image projected on science as whole....that's what I've perceived..."my two cents anyway"....footnotes and all...

" Oh, where was then
WISDOM THE MIRRORED SHIELD...?"

Carl was that "Mirrored Shield of Wisdom" to all the hierarchies of the times...the heirarchies of high profile social image, cultural and social identity and the power of the authorities of faith and science....

(There is an assertive skill technique I sometimes use dealing with conflict in relationships---its called "assertive irony"---I reflect back behavior that was used aggressively on me --as a mirror--to make a point about the others person behavior problem...then I go back to confirm my solution to the problem and state objectively how I feel...that the point about using assertive techniques...to solve the problem and remain objective...)

The book called "POWER A ND INNOCENCE" by Rollo May also talks about this technique used by some of the woman in Nazi Germany, considering the powers of authority of those times...now we have whistle blowers...Carl was doing something intelligent in his works especially considering our corporate giants in technology and the giants of the religious authority and the scientific corporate technological hierarchies...
 
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freespirit2001

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THANK YOU FOR THIS MESSAGE, NATHAN POE!

.....Carl Sagan as the "The Mr. Roger's of Science"...****

He also was arrested three times in Neveda in the 1980's, for protesting underground Nuclear Testing.

" Sagan concedes that his phenomenal range can be seen as a weakness. "It's a question of the balance between breadth and depth," he says. "Everyone has limitations of time and ability. Certainly its true that if you spend alot of time on breadth, you must be losing something on depth...But I also see scientists who are bummed out after a while, and their productivity declines in their narrowly circumscibed fields. "

Carl Sagan " THE VISIONARY SCIENTIST"

_________________


ON SCIENCE LITERACY:

" All inquiries carry with them some element of risk. There is no guarantee that the universe will conform to all our predispositions. But I do not see how we can deal with the universe---both the outside and inside universe---without studying it. The best way to avoid abuses is for the populace in general to be scientifically literate, to understand the implications of such investigations. In exchange for freedom of inquiry, scientists are obliged to explain their work. If science is considered a closed priesthood, too difficult and arcane for the average person to understand, the dangers of the abuse is greater.
But if science is a topic of general interest and concern--if both its delights and its social consequences are discussed regularly and competently in the schools, the press, and at the dinner table---we have greatly improved our prospects for learning how the world really is and for improving both it and us."

BROCA'S BRAIN, "Broca's Brain" p.12 Carl Sagan
 
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LorentzHA

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freespirit2001 said:
Science As A Candle in the Dark, Carl Sagan mentions over and over:
IMO, when I read this particular line, I am interpreting it as a Candle (light) in a sea of ignorance. Perhaps a way of explaing what was previously considered, mystery.
 
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freespirit2001

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THIS IS NOT TRUE...

as was printed in the Washington Post, May 30, 1996:"The Final Frontier? All Carl Sagan Wants to Di Is Understand the Universe. All He Needs Is Time"


"AN ATHEIST HAS TO KNOW ALOT MORE THAN I KNOW. AN ATHEIST IS SOMEONE WHO KNOWS THERE IS NO GOD."
Carl Sagan

There is a tendency for the description of what an atheist is, to color my perception of truth and affect my belief in the existence of a higher spiritual order (dimension) in my life...Atheists have already prejudiced their universe in denying the existence of a "Power of Higher Intelligence and of a Higher Order" ( God and the Bible) and that men can not be given gifts of insight and truth from that " Power of Higher Intelligence and Higher Order" ( men inspired by Holy Spirit). All I have to say is "To each his own."
CARL SAGAN WAS NOT AN ATHEIST. He may have been somewhat of a rebel in the hierarchy of the field of science, and of the corporate giants of the technological age--- his protesting in the nuclear testing sites of Neveda is an example of the "rebel" and the "visionary" scientist that I'm assuming he was...He was arrested three times for those protests...He also was denied a post at Harvard and went on to study and work at Cornell...He also went out to Berkerly California for a while, that may have added color to the "discreet rebel attitude" I sense in his character through his works....and for those trying to sell him out by pinning him down with an atheist label....he did have a "Mirrored Shield of Wisdom" (that is "faith" alone to me, and an excellent assertive tool) when it came to his subtle and disceet beliefs...especially about evolution and creation and the intellence from higher realms....

This quote also reinforces my assumptions about the rebel and visionary nature of Carl Sagan, and his humanistic values as a scientist:

" SCIENCE IS NOT ONLY COMPATIBLE WITH SPIRITUALITY, IT IS A PROFOUND SENSE OF SPIRITUALITY."

Carl Sagan The Demon-Haunted World

www.2think.org/science.shtml
 
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freespirit2001

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" Carl Sagan went off to the University of Chicago (when he was 16), from which he recieved bachelor's degrees in 1954 and 1955, a master's degree in physics in 1956 and a Ph.D. in astronomy and astrophysics in 1960. He accepted a fellowship at the University of Berkeley, became an assitant professor of astronomy at Harvard University, and then joined Cornell faculty in 1968. He became a full professor in 1971."*

He originally came from Brooklyn, New York and was the son of Samuel Sagan, a jewish immigrant from the Ukraine and Rachel Molly Gruber Sagan. He had interests in science and astronomy and in mythology, rocketry and science fiction all through his childhood. "His family moved to Rahway, New Jersey, in the late 1940's, where he attended Rahway High School...Astounding Science Fiction introduced him to more scientific speculations...That same year inaugurated the "flying saucer" craze..."*

At The University of Chicago, working with Nobel-Prize winning chemist Professor Harold C. Urey, Stanley Miller, a grad student experiment produced the result of amino acids, the building blocks of living organisms. " Miller's experiment dramatized the possiblity of explaining life and its origins in purly scientific terms without resorting to supernaturalism or mysterious "vital forces." This experiment thrilled Sagan, partly because he was a religious skeptic and partly reinforced his belief in extraterrestrial life....Because hydrogen pervades the cosmos, this implied that alien life might be common. Humans might not live alone in the cosmos."*

Carl Sagan went on to do a paper on "Radiation and the Gene" with H.J. Muller of Indiana University...then went on to work at Yerkes Observatory in Wisconsin and the McDonald Observatory in Fort Davis, Texas---more concerned about the possibility of extraterrestrial life. At Wisconsin, Sagan met another future mentor, Joshua Lederberg ( future Nobel Laureate) with mutual interest in the possibility of extraterrestrial life ( the science of exobiology ).

Later he co-wrote "Intelligent Life in the Universe (1966)" with Soviet radioastronomer I.S. Shklovskii. His later bestselling book "The Cosmic Connection (1973)" with his "ability in it to explain difficult ideas in entertaining ways won him a semiregular spot on Johnny Carson's "Tonight Show" on the NBC-TV network...( he was on Johnny Carson's Show over 26 times in his career.)

" The Dragon's of Eden " came out next in 1977. "In that year NASA launched to the outer solar system the Voyager space probes, which carried audio records designed by Sagan and others. The records contained samples of terrestrial music, earthly sounds and voices and accoustically coded pictures...."*(?)

His work at Berkely (came from )--"The Miller Fellowship would change Sagan's life. His California idyll of the early 60's lasted less than three years, yet from that time on, he was-metaphorically- a permanent Californian. He would repeatly return to the Golden Gate State for the rest of his life, sometimes for years at a time, to work on science or television or movie projects, sporting sunglasses and cruising freeways in his Porsche with the license plate PHOBOS ( after the moon on Mars)."**

" Sagan flew off to places such as Green Bank, West Virginia where he and older, more distinguished scientists discussed ways to contact extraterrestrials."..."The National Radio Astronomy Observatory radiotelescope is in the radio-"quiet valley of Green Bank." "The first SETI "conference" occurred at Green Bank in November 1961." One scientist who was there, John C. Lilly, is one of the strangest characters in modern American science. At the conference, in addition to all the other theories posed about intelligent life and our human origins, Lilly argued that Earth has at least one other intelligent species---dolphins....His off beat career has inspired at least two major films about unorthodox scientists---( The Day of the Dolphin and Altered States). His speech was the hit of the conference.....

Sagan visted Lilly's lab in the early 70's ( in the Cosmic Connection he includes a chapter about his experiences with dolphins)

" Lilly's admirers were less charmed by his subsequent career. He began taking mind-altering drugs and wrote strange, sometimes incomprehensible books about his experiences. His dolphin research fell into disfavor.... Now in the mid-80's and living in Hawaii, Lilly claims he has psychically communicated with extraterrestrials via drugs. The extraterrestrials-"transcendant beyond-humans," he calls them- inhabit "other dimensions."

" Lilly's strange decline epitomized that of a not terribly uncommon personality type of the late 20th century, the once-capable scientist who, tired of the rigors of cold, hard reason, begins to dip into pseudoscience and mysticism...( Lilly, Timothy Leary, Brian O'Leary, James McDonald) Sagan knew the last set of people well. Their disappearance into unchartered waters may have reinforced Sagan's anxiety about the future of science and reason....an anxiety he expressed in one of his last book, The Demon-Haunted World."**


" Around 1960, almost all scientists regarded flight into the stars ...effectively impossible...The major problem was Einstein's speed limit. No physical object can reach the speed of light, 186,00 miles per second...In a year a beam of light travels one light year---6 trillion miles...the nearest star is four light years away..."**

"Sagan speculated that galactic aliens, however, had visited earth in the distant past..."**







*NYTIMES.COM: "Carl Sagan, an Astronomer Who Excelled at Popularizing Science, Is Dead at 62" William Dicke

**sfgate.com:CALIFORNIA COSMOLOGY Carl Sagan: The Berkeley Years, The San Francisco Examiner, August 22, 1999
 
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freespirit2001

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I followed him in the late 70's reading first "Broca's Brain" then "The Dragon's of Eden". My Mom and I watched him on the Cosmos series regularly. These works of Carl Sagan inspired my thoughts that anyone can study science...I just loved the movie Contact. I felt it would be interesting to gather all the knowledge I could find about this scientist ( so I posted this thread) with the hopes of finding out others' opinions and perspective about his work. I feel he was a great information gatherer as well as a great visionary scientist, through his books and TV series and movie....He knew business astutely well and knew what the public wanted to hear in the world of science...He promoted a natural curiosity and inspired "information gathering" and "information power" through his works.......I admired how he inspired a natural curiosity ---"skepticism"---"wonder" ---about intelligent extraterrestrial life....... I just sense that the message he left through his works may have meanings not on the same level of everyone else finding what they assume would be "little green men" living on other realms....( The same with the identity-sense problem and the ego-sense problem about someone looking for God) ....It takes proof but it may not be "in the masses of people" for proof...

I don't know the "why" about why he was so absorbed about finding extraterrestrial life on other planets...( processes that would take an understanding of the dimensions of light and time to be able to hear messages from other planets...)....and why would he work in setting up organizations like SETI or CSICOP...
____________

"Little green men" for the science world and "angels as divine beings and messangers" from a higher realm, for the spiritual/religious world....? There are alot of angel refences in the bible..... There isn't a connection here...(?)

___________________

I love science and information...Carl Sagan made it attainable and makes the asking of questions OK...and the thinking of thoughts about the unusual Ok too...
 
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LorentzHA

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I have thought about this for quite some time. I have wondered of those "angels" mentioned in the Bible were how people interpretaed "visitors". Who knows. I have often thought maybe our God is a higher being from elsewhere. It is not testable though. Before I went I had an ex-coworker who was obsessed with this and turned me on to books by Zaccaria Sitzchen (sp?) Some people think he is kind of nutty but the books are thought provoking and at the very least a fun read. I think you would enjoy Genesis Revisted.
 
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Nathan Poe

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Actually, in all Sagan's years in the public eye, he never once used the phrase, "BIllions and billions." He did use that as the title of his final book (as a joke) and explained the history of it in the first chapter. Sagan was a regular on Johnny Carson, and Carson (himself an amateur astronomer) used to occasionally parody Sagan for a comedy sketch. It was Carson, not Sagan, that made "Billions and billions" such a catchphrase.

But hey, look at it this way.
Humphrey Bogart never actually said "Play it again, Sam," he just said, "play it!"
Sherlock Holmes never once said "Elementary, my dear Watson" in any of the stories,
and a picture is not worth a thousand words, but ten thousand, according to the original proverb by Confucius.

What's one more deflated myth?
 
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freespirit2001

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I'm glad I'm not alone in that belief about Sagan and his extraterrestrials---that possibly through spiritual eyes he may have alluded to them as being, as a "Mirrored Shield" would have it in very discreet ways---possibly connected to spiritual beliefs---by no means however "little green men"---( I also found confirmation of this fact on other sites about Sagan's works) that's why I go to all legths of approaches to suggest using healthy behaviors and approaches of detection and discernment to his work...The extraterrestrials or the beings from more intelligent realms may be angels to the christian mind, but not as the image as the artists portray them (through the early coptic cultures, the renaissance and the victorian era--egpytian mythology)---those images with wings may have to go for now about some of my beliefs about angels and extraterrestrials beings....I think of the ones that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah....( although I lived close enough to The Three Mile Island Nuclear plant [NJ--1979]when President Carter had to come over and work out the nuclear core problems there back in March) this time the "angels" ----the minds of science and the President--- prevented that from happening...


---That was somewhere around the time Carl Sagan was protesting the underground Nuclear testing in Nevada...He also came from NJ at one time, in his High School days....


OK I'm a bit of a skeptic about angels...but ...I may have been observing some halos in the sand or in the concrete structures nearby, sometime later after the incident, however)


Carl's quotes about extraterrestrial's that may have visited the earth in the beginning of the process of creation do interest me...I like his unusual footnotes about the cherubim in Genesis...I feel he implied something about processes of the spiritual part of our DNA make-up--- as a perhaps biological metaphor that was meant by the first inspired writers of the Word of God...but somehow got garbled in time...he was adept at both DNA studies as well as life on other planets (exobiology)....alot of humanistic studies of religion and higher spiritual beings from many cultures through the ages from all over the world in the book Cosmos.

Thanks again for your confirmation! The book you mentioned is interesting to me also!
 
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freespirit2001

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I'm surprised and amazed Carl Sagan made reference to a very famous Old Testament Hebrew King, King Josiah, in his book, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. King Josiah was, in fact, one of the last of the line of the Hebrew Kings, before the Hebrew people went into the Babylonian captivity. The story of King Josiah is one of my most favorite of all old testament stories, and I remember it for some reason above all else....The line of Hebrew Kings was growing very evil in very evil days, and King Josiah arose as the last of the wise and discerning Kings...the law of Moses was no longer being used by the previous Hebrew Kings and was lost somewhere in an old part of the Temple and, miraculously, in the midst of major reformation struggle, Josiah found the law text and confirmation of all his views....

I wonder about the esoteric reasons why Carl Sagan refers to King Josiah (of all people in history) ----Sagan also suggests that King Josiah just so happens to find the Law text he was needing, to improve the quality of life of his people---and the finding of the document was actually a "spoof" of Hebrew bible history---

Here is the quote about King Josiah in The Demon-Haunted World, the chapter called "Spoofing and Secrecy":


" There are many cases in human history of a similiar character--- where a document of dubious provenance suddenly appears carrying information of great import which strongly supports the case of those who have made the discovery. After careful and in some cases courageous investigation the document proves to be a hoax. There is no difficulty in understanding the motivation of hoaxers. A more or less typical example is the book of Deuteronomy---discovered hidden in the Temple in Jerusalem by King Josiah, who, miraculously, in the midst of major reformation struggle, found in Deuteronomy confirmation of all his views."


According to the Oxford English Dictionary---the name "Sagan" is a deputy of the Jewish High Priest, the second highest function of the Temple....I DON'T feel religion IS our sciences now....nor our are temples now our laboratories... Carl Sagan, was a visionary but not a part of any new scientific priesthood...Perhaps, though as "Sagan"...he may have felt to recognize some ties with his Jewish ancestry by mentioning King Josiah in his work....
 
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