works based salvation

[aggregate]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

That one is judged by their works doesn't contradict that one is saved by grace through faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[topher694]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

Who does it say is being judged there?

And what does 1 Cor 15:22 say of those who are saved (in Christ)?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive"

 

[aggregate]

of course it does. You are either saved by works or faith. this verse, among others, seems to indicate that works are the dividing line between heaven and hell- there's no mention whatsoever about faith, or jesus in there

 

[YouAreAwesome]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

Hi aggregate,

Revelation 20:12 talks of two categories of book. There are those books mentioned when John sees that books were opened and seperate from those books he sees the book of life, "...and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life...". For those who are not written in the book of life, they are called the dead and have their works judged, again from verse 12, "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books".

So in short, if our name is written in the Book of Life, the Word of God, the Word Himself, Jesus, our lives are judged as righteous by His righteousness. If we are not written in the Book of Life, we are written in the book of death and judged by those works.

That's how I read it anyways.

 

[aggregate]

thank you for that reply-I hope you're right

 

[redleghunter]

of course it does. You are either saved by works or faith. this verse, among others, seems to indicate that works are the dividing line between heaven and hell- there's no mention whatsoever about faith, or jesus in there

In Revelation 20 people are judged according to their works for a reason.

Read the entire chapter and find the part where it discusses the first Resurrection.

 

[aggregate]

thank you-will read this tomorrow and respond

 

[Guojing]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

The gospel of the kingdom required works, and that will be the gospel that will be preached once again during the Tribulation period.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

Because the Bible says so. Those who are born again are not dead. They are alive.

There are different judgements for believers and unbelievers. The Judgement of Christ for the believer is for rewards. It's the "bema" judgement, like an award ceremony at a sporting venue. Some will have greater rewards, some next to nothing.

Unbelievers also are judged according to their works, but like criminals receiving a sentence depending on their crime.

 

[Oldmantook]

We are saved by faith alone (Eph 2:9) as works done in our own flesh do not earn us salvation (Eph 2:10). BUT the evidence of genuine faith is our works - which we were created to do in Christ Jesus upon coming to faith (Eph 2:10). That is why James 2:24 states that a man is justified by works and not only by faith. Our works done in obedience to God are the outward evidence of inward saving faith. There is no contradiction - like two sides of the same coin.

 

[klutedavid]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

Paul said it was by grace through faith. No one can be saved that does not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The fundamental doctrine in Christianity is that belief in Jesus Christ.

Now if you want to excel as a Christian, if you want to perfect your faith. Then works are the answer and that is primarily the gift of love directed towards others.

This is not difficult to understand.

 

[klutedavid]

of course it does. You are either saved by works or faith. this verse, among others, seems to indicate that works are the dividing line between heaven and hell- there's no mention whatsoever about faith, or jesus in there

Yet if you read Paul's letters then it will be grace through faith.

Even Peter deferred to Paul's teaching.

 

[Amittai]

Jesus dealt with our former works. Our subsequent, Holy Spirit powered works in protecting our fellow widow & orphan (the other other) and potentising their gifts so they will gain a crown, is the fruits that the garden owner has sent the gardener to look for.

 

[Amittai]

This is how the distinction between salvation per se, and Kingdom of God, where we shall be assessed for responsibility, emerges.

The people who said "Lord, Lord", whom Jesus didn't know, may have even misinferred their assurance? That is why we aren't the best judges of how that distinction will pan out in our own lives. Let Him be the best judge! In almost mid-battle the general counted the "cost" more shrewdly. The builder had his crew of brickies and his shovels at the ready, and then examined the forward plan all the more closely.

The person who buried the talent rather than put it in the bank, devalued the Kingdom that Christ desires to see him help form, among his fellows (by saying it was an amount of low value).

Are we being taught by our teachers how to help each other make the stones living, and knit the joints? On top of its literal meaning, the epistle of James means this.

The fruits and works spoken of, are virtues which will see us through tough times and make us open for God to work in the people around us. This work especially is done in our prayers, and in giving our brother belief. As belief = to act on our hearing, that means our prayer for our brother need be accompanied by our non-pushy example. So that he in turn can see how to build up others.

Your brother's spiritual child might have a major crucial role in the Kingdom (probably low profile). Do you want a share in that person's crown? This is St Paul's thinking.

I have sussed out the above by long thinking, but it isn't a habit, yet.

Our God is the one person in the universe truly entitled to package deal, and to pyramid scheme!

 

[Amittai]

The "cost" of the Kingdom = Ascending, He distributed gifts differing = Grace Abounding.

The last 21 verses of Proverbs 21 are NOT your "church wife" ! They are Father's firm, Father's household.

 

[packermann]

of course it does. You are either saved by works or faith. this verse, among others, seems to indicate that works are the dividing line between heaven and hell- there's no mention whatsoever about faith, or jesus in there

I need to correct you. Those are not the two options. The third option - faith and works. Faith is a prerequisite to works. Who would strive to obey Christ if he does not believe in Him and what He commands us to do?

 

[packermann]

Yet if you read Paul's letters then it will be grace through faith.

Even Peter deferred to Paul's teaching.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ephesians 2:8,9

The order for salvation is grace -> through faith -> to do good works.

So he who does not have good works does not have the grace of God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Revelation 20:11-13


11And I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away, and a place was not found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, having stood before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is [the Scroll] of Life. And the dead were judged by the [things] having been written in the scrolls, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead, the [ones] in it, and death and the realm of the dead [Gr. hades] gave up the dead, the [ones] in them. And they were judged, each one according to their works.

How can you possibly say salvation is by faith?

Easy, by understanding the Greek definition of the word pistis.


The words faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition. These have to do with an individual’s motivation for salvation. Notice in the definition below there’s a number 1 in front of the first 3 descriptions for the word pisteuo, that’s because all three of these descriptions are included in the primary definition.


believe


G4100


Lemma:


πιστεύω


Transliteration:


pisteúō


Pronounce:


pist-yoo'-o


Part of Speech:


Verb


Language:


greek


Description:


1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed


1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference


1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul


2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith


3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith


2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers


G4103


Lemma:


πιστός


Transliteration:


pistós


Pronounce:


pis-tos'


Part of Speech:


Adjective


Language:


greek


Description:


1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on


2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises


1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead


2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation


faith


G4102


Lemma:


πίστις


Transliteration:


pístis


Pronounce:


pis'-tis


Part of Speech:


Noun Feminine


Language:


greek


Description:


1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God


1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ


1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same


2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on


This does not mean that our works in any way play a role in our salvation but the motivation behind those works is what counts. Is our desire self serving or God serving. Does is stem from a selfish desire like self righteousness and recognition or does it stem from love for others and love for God. Those who believe in Christ and desire to do good works out of love for God and others will be saved despite their imperfections but those who do good works as a means to earn self righteousness will not be saved regardless of whether they believe in Christ or not because the scriptures say that those who seek to justify themselves thru their works have denied the necessity of Christ’s sacrifice.


So when you view the word pisteuo as only pertaining to the definition of the English word believe verses like John 15:1-10 don’t make any sense because it completely eliminates any inner conviction or desire to actually serve God as being a necessity for receiving salvation. If a person has this inner conviction and desire to serve God then he will bear fruit and so long as he keeps this inner conviction he will abide in Christ. Simply acknowledging that Christ existed without any desire to serve God will save no one. This is why the definition of the English word believe does not fit the context of the scriptures and appears to contradict other verses.

 

[ripple the car]

Works do matter. We do need them, as well as faith.