Works and Salvation

[Soyeong]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

 

[contratodo]

Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves,
The Holy Spirit is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Because we are His creation created in Christ Jesus for good works
which God has pre ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior.
Titus 2:5-6

Verily Verily I say unto you, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can not enter the kingdom of heaven.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

If you live after the flesh you shall die,
if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God. [born of God]
Romans 8:13-14

 

[Soyeong]

Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves,
The Holy Spirit is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.
Because we are His creation created in Christ Jesus for good works
which God has pre ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
but according to His mercy He saved us,
by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our savior.
Titus 2:5-6

Verily Verily I say unto you, unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can not enter the kingdom of heaven.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

If you live after the flesh you shall die,
if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the flesh you shall live.
Because as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the children of God. [born of God]
Romans 8:13-14

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the gift as a wage. Likewise, aspects of God's character are fruits of the Spirit, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control, and it is the gift of God for us to get to have the experience expressing aspects of God's character by obeying His law, which is the way to know God, which is the gift of eternal life (John 17:3). This is also why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born of God (1 John 3:4-10), and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-14).

 

[fhansen]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something. For example, there is a difference between work that someone is required to have done first to earn a wage to pay for the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour and the work of driving it that is intrinsically required to have that experience. The opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour can also be given as a gift that requires someone to do the work to have that experience, but where that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to have that experience as a wage.

While there are many verse like Romans 4:1-5 that speak against works being required to earn our justification/righteousness/salvation/eternal life as a wage in the first sense, there are many verses like Hebrews 5:9 support that they require us to be doers of works in the second sense. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are not required to have first obeyed it in order to earn our salvation as a wage, having the experience of living in obedience to it is intrinsically the content of the gift of Jesus saving us from having the experience of not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us how to have the experience doing those works is intrinsically the content of His gift of saving us having the experience of not doing those works.

In other words, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of His law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life as a wage.

Fallen man has a void inside, something missing that he thirsts for but can’t quite identify, and that “something” is God, whether he wants to acknowledge that need or not. We’re already primed to know and seek Him in this godless world, alienated from Him, but the experience of actually knowing God is first of all due to His revelation and grace, reaching down and meeting us first. Faith is man’s first response to His initiative and we do nothing else to enter the relationship with Him that results, a relationship which constitutes the essence of justice or righteousness for man. That relationship is why Jesus came, to reconcile man with God. We don’t earn it by works of the law; it’s a free gift, and a union that we were created for. Adam had effectively, foolishly, dismissed and rejected it in Eden, while Abraham embraced it.

But now with Him, now knowing, believing in, hoping in, and loving Him, now justified, we’re finally able to live as we should, as we were created to live, by His Spirit, in obedience. And to grow in that knowledge and that righteousness…or not. We can also fail to remain in Him, fail to live by the Spirit, to love as He and His family does. We can return to our sins. But if we remain in Him, as His people, He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts (Jer 31:33). It’s all His work, but work we must cooperate in or we’ll end up rejecting and losing the justified state, the free gift He gave us as we choose injustice instead: sin, lawlessness, godlessness. We must pick up our cross every day, choosing to live as He wills with the continuous help of His ever-available grace.

So...union with God is the basis and essence of true righteousness or justice for man. Faith justifies us for no other reason than because it means this union, this alignment, this right stead, with God. And that relationship means right living, under grace, walking by the Spirit because His seed is now in us. The nearer we are to God, the greater and surer is our righteousness. If we move away from Him, our righteousness begins to fade, the light begins to go out and our behavior will reflect darkness instead. We don't prove our righteous by right living first, rather we turn to God first who then works His righteousness in us. We must desire it, and practice it, with His grace. He won't do it all for us; we must make effort to comply by our every choice to the greatest extent we can. In this way He draws us closer and closer to rectitude, to Himself.

 

[Josheb]

There is a sense of works that we are required to have done first in order to earn something as a wage that is different from the sense of works that are intrinsically required to have the experience of doing something.

Who is "we"?


Is that statement to be read and understood to say,

• There is a sense of works that we, the already regenerate, saved believers are required to have done in order to earn something.....
• There is a sense of works that we, the unregenerate, unsaved theists are required to have done first in order to earn something.....
• There is a sense of works that we, the unregenerate, never-saved atheists are required to have done first in order to earn something.....

Identify the audience affiliation so participants in the thread don't end up talking past one another, please. Thx

 

[Soyeong]

Who is "we"?


Is that statement to be read and understood to say,

• There is a sense of works that we, the already regenerate, saved believers are required to have done in order to earn something.....
• There is a sense of works that we, the unregenerate, unsaved theists are required to have done first in order to earn something.....
• There is a sense of works that we, the unregenerate, never-saved atheists are required to have done first in order to earn something.....

Identify the audience affiliation so participants in the thread don't end up talking past one another, please. Thx

“We” referred to everyone in general.

 

[Josheb]

“We” referred to everyone in general.

Gifts are not earned. Neither are they predicated on anyone doing something as a wage. Most importantly, however, there are substantive differences between those who are saved and those who are not saved and also substantive differences between the works of the unsaved and works of the saved. Salvifically speaking, "we" cannot mean "all people" or there would be no basis upon which the saved and unsaved could be spoken of with any distinction.