Working on the Sabbath

[honorthesabbath]

"These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of

Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses

."



Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham‘s seed, and heirs according to the promise.



Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

"And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:"

In your estimation, what does it mean to make something for someone as opposed to someone being made for something? What's the difference between these two concepts?



If you do a word search, what you will find is that that term, "sabbath was made for man", means MANKIND--ALL OF US!! And yes, the sabbath was given to mankind as a gift from God. Why then do you refuse such a blessed gift from Him? Salvation is also a gift--are you going to refuse that too?







First of all, I'm not putting her down. I simply pointed out the obvious, in that she never realized until the moment I revealed to her the inconsistency of her thinking.

Secondly, are you going to say that the congregation of which you are a part would continue to pay your pastor (if he is paid) if he stopped preaching on the Sabbath? Please elaborate.

This was answered in the section where I explain why she should have told you HOW SDA pastors are paid.

Ahh, but I have not said that she is in error for error's own sake. I was simply offering to her a fresh new perspective of something to which she had never given thought. She obviously didn't like the implications, but I believe she was being honest when initially answering. She's a dear, precious woman who I think truly loved the Lord and served Him with and from her heart.

Again, if she had known/ or should have known how SDA pastors are paid--she would have laughed at your implications and shrugged it off or at least explained it to as I have attempted to do.



Blessings, Honor

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham‘s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

I hope you don't mind my saying so, but you lost me. What do these verses mean to you?

In your estimation, what does it mean to make something for someone as opposed to someone being made for something? What's the difference between these two concepts?

If you do a word search, what you will find is that that term, "sabbath was made for man", means MANKIND--ALL OF US!! And yes, the sabbath was given to mankind as a gift from God. Why then do you refuse such a blessed gift from Him? Salvation is also a gift--are you going to refuse that too?

I should first point out that a mere question doesn't legitimaze itself just because it was asked. That goes for all of us.

Secondly, I never refused the gift of the Sabbath. The wording of your question sounded more like an accusation than it did an actual question.

Perhaps I should ask a few questions so that I can make sure we're on the same wavelength:

1) How do you define the Sabbath?
2) What are we supposed to do on the Sabbath?
3) Where is that defined in detail so that we are sure to not break it?
4) Are you assuming that my talking on the radio was not relaxing to me, and a help to other fellow believers?

This was answered in the section where I explain why she should have told you HOW SDA pastors are paid.

1) Ok, so, out of curiosity, how is that different from the ones here in my city this lady served under?
2) Are you assuming that all SDA organizations are run exactly the same, even when they are not in the same conference as yours?

Again, if she had known/ or should have known how SDA pastors are paid--she would have laughed at your implications and shrugged it off or at least explained it to as I have attempted to do.

Having read your explanation of how your pastors are paid, in Arkansas and Louisiana, this opens up a whole new can of worms, but I will stick to just the one area of this issue: What you shared about your group in those two states (which does not define how it is done here in Kansas), you still did not effectively lay aside my question to that dear lady. My question still stands as asked, even in your state. You attempted to derate my question to their missing one or two sermons. My question had to do with them not doing ANY sermonizing on Saturday. There's a difference.

Blessings

BTW

 

[Sophia7]

Having read your explanation of how your pastors are paid, in Arkansas and Louisiana, this opens up a whole new can of worms, but I will stick to just the one area of this issue: What you shared about your group in those two states (which does not define how it is done here in Kansas), you still did not effectively lay aside my question to that dear lady. My question still stands as asked, even in your state. You attempted to derate my question to their missing one or two sermons. My question had to do with them not doing ANY sermonizing on Saturday. There's a difference.

Although this is somewhat off of the main point of this thread, I can tell you (as a pastor's wife) that pastors in the Adventist Church are paid the same way no matter what conference they are in, whether it is Arkansas-Louisiana or Kansas-Nebraska or whatever. They are also paid the same base salary no matter how big their churches are, with adjustments for years of experience, ordination, cost-of-living adjustments, etc.

I don't know if you are familiar with the organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, BTW, but it is rather hierarchal in structure, divided into divisions and unions and conferences. The General Conference is the worldwide organization, and then there are divisions, such as North American Division, Southern Africa-Indian Ocean Division, Trans-European Division, etc. These divisions are further broken down into unions, such as (in the United States) Lake Union, Pacific Union, Mid-America Union, etc. And finally, these are separated into conferences like Arkansas-Louisiana, Dakota, Texas, Kansas-Nebraska, etc.

Pastors in the Adventist Church are paid by the conference from a portion of the tithe money that is sent to the conference by the local churches. They are not paid or hired by the local congregation, unless they are serving in certain positions, such as youth pastors or Bible workers that the local church might hire in addition to the regular pastor sent to them by the conference.

As far as the question about whether a pastor could refuse to preach on Sabbath and still get paid, the answer is obviously no. A pastor might, of course, go on vacation or be sick or something and miss a preaching appointment every now and then, but he could not decide to stop working on Sabbath and keep his job. Pastors also do not get paid by the hour or the day, and they do not work regular hours anyway, so it would be rather difficult to determine how much a Sabbath day's pay would be.

However, I really don't think the issue of whether a person gives up pay on Sabbath is important. What seems more important to me is whether it is essential to do the job on Sabbath. A pastor is obviously required to work on Sabbath, but some other jobs might not be so obvious. Nurses often work on Sabbath without question because their job is taking care of people who need help. However, some are able to arrange their schedules so they don't have to work on Sabbath. That job is not so clear-cut.

This is a controversial subject, and people can disagree about specifics because the Bible doesn't say, "Thou shalt not talk to people about God on the radio on Sabbath and accept payment." The fourth commandment says that we should do no work, nor should we allow anyone else to work for us. The question arises when we try to define "work." I believe that we should avoid doing any kind of work (that is, our regular paid jobs and also unpaid work such as house work or yard work) as much as possible. The reference to the priests in the temple desecrating the Sabbath (Matthew 12:2) suggests that they actually were breaking the Sabbath by ministering in the temple but that they were innocent of the guilt of this sin because the administering of the sacrifices (a symbol of Christ's sacrifice of Himself for us) was more important even than the Sabbath. If even the priests were desecrating the Sabbath in their work, we need to be careful about what we consider acceptable work on Sabbath. I would suggest that in this context, most jobs that people do on Sabbath would not be viewed as acceptable to God.

Jesus did say that it is lawful to do good on Sabbath (Matthew 12:11-12), but this is not the same as working a regular job. Pulling sheep out of pits and healing men with shriveled hands (Matt. 12:9) are not things that most people do regularly on Sabbath. Jesus did, but Jesus is the High Priest of the heavenly sanctuary (Hebrews 8-9). Jesus turned most of the Pharisees' ideas about keeping the Sabbath on their heads, but He did not change the commandment itself.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Although this is somewhat off of the main point of this thread, I can tell you (as a pastor's wife) that pastors in the Adventist Church are paid the same way no matter what conference they are in, whether it is Arkansas-Louisiana or Kansas-Nebraska or whatever. They are also paid the same base salary no matter how big their churches are, with adjustments for years of experience, ordination, cost-of-living adjustments, etc.

Ok. That pretty well answered my question in this regard. Thanks.

Additionally, was made the point that this 70 year old woman considered it to be very wrong for me to accept pay on the Sabbath when she herself was supporting and working for her "pastor" who was also being paid to minister on that same day. Her assumption was such that he was doing it seperate from his other duties, all of which define his job in earning that paycheck. Her pastor and I were essentially doing the same thing, only my audience was listening to me through radio, and they were sitting in a building listening through a P.A. system. Either way, it is still an electronic means of communcation. whether the audience can see the face of the speaker or not.

As far as the question about whether a pastor could refuse to preach on Sabbath and still get paid, the answer is obviously no. A pastor might, of course, go on vacation or be sick or something and miss a preaching appointment every now and then, but he could not decide to stop working on Sabbath and keep his job. Pastors also do not get paid by the hour or the day, and they do not work regular hours anyway, so it would be rather difficult to determine how much a Sabbath day's pay would be.

Understood. Thanks for taking the time to share this. It pretty well confirms my original point in stating that even the pastors of the SDA are indeed paid to preach on the Sabbath, contrary to the thinking of those who would assume to try and seperate that duty from all the others where his pay is concerned. Such lofty thinking simply fails to grapple with the reality, no matter how ugly one may find it to be in relation to their over-charged sensibilities.

However, I really don't think the issue of whether a person gives up pay on Sabbath is important.

Well, as you observed, it appears to be an issue with honorthesabbath, if I am understanding her points correctly.

This is a controversial subject, and people can disagree about specifics because the Bible doesn't say, "Thou shalt not talk to people about God on the radio on Sabbath and accept payment." The fourth commandment says that we should do no work, nor should we allow anyone else to work for us. The question arises when we try to define "work."

Very true indeed. We feed and water our feedlot cattle on the Sabbath just like any other day, because not doing so would adversely affect their health and well being.

Thanks and God bless

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Firstly, no Adventist, especially a long time ago, would even consider turning on the radio on Sabbath. It just wasn’t/isn’t done. The only exception among SOME Adventists today is that there are now many SDA programs available on Sabbath to minister to shut-in’s and those who may have never heard the message.

This is an interesting statement in itself. You seem to have some hard feelings about any SDA listening to the radio on Saturday. Why is that? Why would sitting back, listening to a radio program a problem for Saturday? If the individual isn't working to chop wood, which can be done on another day, for example, then it escapes me as to why it would be wrong, even for older SDA's, to listen to the radio on Sabbath. Is there a parellel prohibition in the word of God against sitting back and listening simply because it is an electronic device through which one may listen on Saturday?

Perhaps you could clarify this for me, because it just doesn't seem connected to anything I have ever read about the Sabbath. White may have had some reservations about it, but then that simply means, at least to me, that it is a matter of conscience more than anything else. It may have violated White's own sensibilities, but that doesn't govern this for all others so far as I know. It would be interesting to hear what you have to say on this matter.

BTW

 

[Sophia7]

In my experience, it doesn't seem as if Adventists have a problem with listening to the radio on Sabbath, as long as it is a Christian radio station. I don't remember ever hearing anyone say anything like that. However, if they play that evil contemporary Christian music or (worse yet) praise music, instead of hymns, that might be another story. Maybe 50 or 60 years ago, they would have objected to listening to the radio on Sabbath because there weren't so many religious broadcasts to listen to, but I don't know of anyone who would say that now.

On the other hand, when I was growing up, TV was completely prohibited on Sabbath among most Adventists, but now people have Sabbath videos and 3ABN. I don't see any reason to doubt that this woman was listening to a Christian radio station on Sabbath.

 

[HoneyDew]

If she is listening to the radio and then calling in to berate the person working on the Sabbath to provide the music and other programs, then something is wrong.

 

[StormyOne]

If the church one attends on sabbath catches on fire on sabbath... who will be called?

If the church one attends on sabbath is robbed by armed robbers on sabbath..... who will be called?

If the church one attends on sabbath has a potluck on sabbath who will serve the food and clean the kitchen when dinner is done?

 

[jonno]

The impression I get from viewing these posts is that a legalistic mindset is still prevailing amongst some of us, Although we deny that profusely. Jesus addressed this very issue. Cant we learn from Him. None of us can say we are without sin with regards to the O.T requirements re the sabbath .Is saying sorry every time good enough.
How terrible! I break the sabbath every week. What am I going to do. Asaiah says not to speak our own words. Who can do that?

 

[BeforeThereWas]

In my experience, it doesn't seem as if Adventists have a problem with listening to the radio on Sabbath, as long as it is a Christian radio station. I don't remember ever hearing anyone say anything like that. However, if they play that evil contemporary Christian music or (worse yet) praise music, instead of hymns, that might be another story.

You must have missed honorthesabbath's post where she said:

[/QUOTE]Firstly, no Adventist, especially a long time ago, would even consider turning on the radio on Sabbath.[/QUOTE]

Maybe 50 or 60 years ago, they would have objected to listening to the radio on Sabbath because there weren't so many religious broadcasts to listen to, but I don't know of anyone who would say that now.

Well, I just quoted one, which is why I brought this up. Even fifty to sixty years ago, there were plenty of Christian radio stations around. Maybe not in every locale, but they were there. My folks listened to them frequently.

On the other hand, when I was growing up, TV was completely prohibited on Sabbath among most Adventists, but now people have Sabbath videos and 3ABN. I don't see any reason to doubt that this woman was listening to a Christian radio station on Sabbath.

Why would it matter what one watches or listens to on the Sabbath? So much of it all is prerecorded programming. The word goes on around us, no matter what our beliefs. We watch, we pray, and we abstain from participation if it violates our sensibilities. Who made the rules, outside of scripture, of what we do and what we don't do when it comes to observing the Sabbath? Where did the rule come from that one does not watch TV or listen to the radio unless it is old time gospel stuff or special "Christian" video? Who made these rules?

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

If she is listening to the radio and then calling in to berate the person working on the Sabbath to provide the music and other programs, then something is wrong.

That's what I thought.

Thanks

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The impression I get from viewing these posts is that a legalistic mindset is still prevailing amongst some of us, Although we deny that profusely.

I got the same impression, but I wanted to give people a chance to explain the source of such authority in determining that certain things that find no parellel within scripture are indeed wrong to enjoy. Now, I will concede that when faced with someone who has been taught legalistic tendencies since childhood, that they can hold to such thinking quite strongly, and perhaps even to the extreme of being manic, and therefore view anything contrary to be wrong and of the devil; even though no scriptural authority can be cited.

We sometimes fail to understand that the appologetic of "Just because," fails miserably as an authority for determining what is wrong for others. It is one thing to say that this or that is sin to me, but quite another to say that it is also sin to another when there is no biblical backing for such.

Jesus addressed this very issue. Cant we learn from Him. None of us can say we are without sin with regards to the O.T requirements re the sabbath .Is saying sorry every time good enough.
How terrible! I break the sabbath every week. What am I going to do. Asaiah says not to speak our own words. Who can do that?

I did find the "gift" argument to be weak and without genuine merit in relation to the actual wording of Jesus' statement in response to the pharasees. I realize this may go against the teachings of some person who many look to as being an authority, whether that authority is genuine or not, but that certainly doesn't excuse the personal interpretation of scripture for the sake of enslaving others into bondage to the Law, especially las that never existed.....until now. None of us has authorization to utilize as weapons those portions of the Law that we happen to fancy.

Good post, jonno.

BTW

 

[StormyOne]

Basically what I am reading is this; just because the practice is tradition doesn't make it correct....

 

[Sophia7]

You must have missed honorthesabbath's post where she said:

Firstly, no Adventist, especially a long time ago, would even consider turning on the radio on Sabbath.

Well, I just quoted one, which is why I brought this up. Even fifty to sixty years ago, there were plenty of Christian radio stations around. Maybe not in every locale, but they were there. My folks listened to them frequently.

I read her post, and I thought she was saying that she doubted your story because she didn't think an elderly Adventist woman would be listening to the radio on Sabbath. I was simply pointing out that I have never actually met anyone, not even any old people, who objected to listening to a Christian radio station on Sabbath. I certainly would not agree with the generalization that "no Adventist, especially a long time ago, would even consider turning on the radio on Sabbath." By the way, the part about praise music was a joke, just in case anyone thought I was serious. Sometimes I don't get why people think certain kinds of music are evil just because they don't like it.

Why would it matter what one watches or listens to on the Sabbath? So much of it all is prerecorded programming. The word goes on around us, no matter what our beliefs. We watch, we pray, and we abstain from participation if it violates our sensibilities. Who made the rules, outside of scripture, of what we do and what we don't do when it comes to observing the Sabbath? Where did the rule come from that one does not watch TV or listen to the radio unless it is old time gospel stuff or special "Christian" video? Who made these rules?

My point on this was not to try to make up any rules, only to observe that people's ideas of what is acceptable to do on Sabbath changes over time. What was considered unacceptable 20 or 30 years ago when I was growing up is now not looked down on so much, even among more conservative Adventists, who turn on the TV to watch 3ABN or whatever. Although I believe that most Adventists now would not think that listening to the radio is wrong, their ideas about TV seem to vary widely. Most of the older people, though, would probably not approve of watching secular programming. I even know one young person who thinks it is wrong to pre-program a VCR to tape something during Sabbath hours, which seems like a rather extreme view to me.

In any case, I was not offering any rules or trying to be legalistic. I was just pointing out the wide range of opinions on this subject. I am also wondering, with so many different opinions, how do we decide what things are acceptable to do on Sabbath? Isaiah 58:13-14 says:

13 "If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the LORD's holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

14 then you will find your joy in the LORD,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob."

This would seem to indicate that we shouldn't just do whatever we want. But how do we call the Sabbath a delight when we're not supposed to just do our own things? I guess the principle that I go by is whether what I am doing helps me focus on my relationship with God and brings me closer to God because that is the whole point of the Sabbath--spending time with God, away from our normal distractions. Also, I think Jesus taught that it is appropriate to help other people on Sabbath (although there could be some question as to what kind of help would be considered "work").

As a pastor's wife, I have to admit that I don't always enjoy Sabbath. It is not a day of rest for our family. It is a day that I have to take care of the kids all by myself while my husband goes to two churches, and I hardly see him. I have to try to keep our kids quiet in church by myself, so all the old people can hear the sermon and don't complain about how noisy our kids are. (And of course they judge our kids more harshly than all of the other kids in church just because they're the pastor's kids.) This has been a big struggle for me. What good is doing all the right things on Sabbath if there is no enjoyment in it and if it often seems that people go to church just to criticize everyone else and get the latest gossip? However, as with anything else, I know that it is important to keep my focus on my relationship with Jesus and ignore all the distractions.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I read her post, and I thought she was saying that she doubted your story because she didn't think an elderly Adventist woman would be listening to the radio on Sabbath.

Well, yes and no. She voiced her doubts about an elderly woman doing what she herself happened to agree is wrong, as is evidenced in her question to me in that same regard.

My point on this was not to try to make up any rules, only to observe that people's ideas of what is acceptable to do on Sabbath changes over time.

Understood. My questions were more general in nature. I should have pointed that out. Sorry.

In any case, I was not offering any rules or trying to be legalistic.

Understood.

I was just pointing out the wide range of opinions on this subject.

Gotchya. No problem.

I am also wondering, with so many different opinions, how do we decide what things are acceptable to do on Sabbath? Isaiah 58:13-14 says:

This would seem to indicate that we shouldn't just do whatever we want. [/QUOTE]

Is Jacob your father? Are you an Israelite with whom the covenant of the Sabbath was given? After all, we also observe in Exod. 31:13, "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you."

Many conveniently ignore the language of this passage, which is specifically directed at a particular people at a particular time. These same people also ignore what ALL scripture has to say on the subject of the Sabbath. I fully agree that the Sabbath is an important part of a believer's life today, but when we force legalistic ramifications upon its observance (I'm not saying you are doing this, but I have met many who do), then I have to wonder about the motives behind those who perpetrate this. They tend to think that emotional argumentation somehow seals the truth of their false logic.

But how do we call the Sabbath a delight when we're not supposed to just do our own things? I guess the principle that I go by is whether what I am doing helps me focus on my relationship with God and brings me closer to God because that is the whole point of the Sabbath--spending time with God, away from our normal distractions.

Good points. Another person in this thread made an equally valid observation by asking who we will call if our house is burning, and I could add to that by asking who will care for patients who need nursing and doctoring, or the animals who need medical attention on the Sabbath. After all, endangering one's life to try and save another's property certainly is not condusive to focusing on our relationship with God. Those who serve in these capacities can observe their day of rest on another day of the week. The Lord said simply SIX days shalt thou labor, and on the SEVENTH... He made no strict demands for that one day way back then be kept track of in order to make sure we did not have it mixed up with another day this far beyond that time.

Also, I think Jesus taught that it is appropriate to help other people on Sabbath (although there could be some question as to what kind of help would be considered "work").

Agreed.

As a pastor's wife, I have to admit that I don't always enjoy Sabbath. It is not a day of rest for our family. It is a day that I have to take care of the kids all by myself while my husband goes to two churches, and I hardly see him.

Therein lies the crux of this whole situation for you and your children in the midst of organized religion. The tradition of teaching and conducting a religious service on the Sabbath is more a thing of expedience than something commanded within God's word. We are not told that the Israelites gathered together in a manner that caused greater work for others of their brothers and sisters. That simply was unthinkable to them. My heart goes out to you and your children.

I have to try to keep our kids quiet in church by myself, so all the old people can hear the sermon and don't complain about how noisy our kids are. (And of course they judge our kids more harshly than all of the other kids in church just because they're the pastor's kids.)

Of course. That goes with the terriroty. Your children are SUPPOSED to be more perfect than the Wal-Mart terrors those other people raise. You knew that going into that field, right?

This has been a big struggle for me. What good is doing all the right things on Sabbath if there is no enjoyment in it and if it often seems that people go to church just to criticize everyone else and get the latest gossip?

This is part of why I have long since walked away from pastoring organized religion and its plethora of problems. Life is hard enough without pastoring a bunch of perpetual sheep who refuse to function on their own. The benefits simply fail to outweigh the problems institutionalism creates for so many.

BTW

 

[StormyOne]

BTW wrote:

This is part of why I have long since walked away from pastoring organized religion and its plethora of problems. Life is hard enough without pastoring a bunch of perpetual sheep who refuse to function on their own. The benefits simply fail to outweigh the problems institutionalism creates for so many.

Beforetherewas,
Now that is deep... and gives one pause... can you share with me what you believe the purpose of the church should be in your opinion? When I say church, I mean the .org....

 

[BeforeThereWas]

BTW wrote:

Beforetherewas,
can you share with me what you believe the purpose of the church should be in your opinion? When I say church, I mean the .org....

When you speak of organizational get-togethers, they can come together for whatever purpose they desire. They all have that freedom, especially here in America. They mostly get together for the exercise of a traditional religious service of singing, responsive reading, announcements, maybe some spcial music, the sermon, and more singing. It mostly follows a typical format, but in varying order and content. That is fine for those who like that kind of thing, which is nowhere commanded nor exemplified in God's word. It's just something I personally don't enjoy any longer.

Now, if you are talking about a gathering of believers outside the institutional/religious context, then that is a whole different matter entirely; at least, according to scripture. Institutional/religious gatherings and biblical gatherings are not necessarily the same thing.

BTW

 

[HoneyDew]

When you speak of organizational get-togethers, they can come together for whatever purpose they desire. They all have that freedom, especially here in America. They mostly get together for the exercise of a traditional religious service of singing, responsive reading, announcements, maybe some spcial music, the sermon, and more singing. It mostly follows a typical format, but in varying order and content. That is fine for those who like that kind of thing, which is nowhere commanded nor exemplified in God's word. It's just something I personally don't enjoy any longer.

BTW

There are a few Adventists chuches that are moving away from the formulaic. Even communion is no longer the typical once every quarter but whenever the members wish. Here is a link for my church's website: http://www.tsdachurch.org/
They believe in a decrease in dogma and an increase in fulfilling relationships with our Lord and each other.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

There are a few Adventists chuches that are moving away from the formulaic. Even communion is no longer the typical once every quarter but whenever the members wish. They believe in a decrease in dogma and an increase in fulfilling relationships with our Lord and each other.

Sounds great. I'm all for a group becoming more relational and less religious.

I once knew a pastor years ago who shocked his people into a semblance of reality. One Sunday morning, he decided to not show up. He had been teaching the congregation about the need for them to learn to function on their own without him. His topics, of course, were spiritual maturity and interdependence upon one another. So, he sat in his car down the street to watch what would happen. Well, those people searched around the building, called his home, looked in his office, searched the basement, no pastor. So they sat in their pews for a while, and later decided to dismiss without having done a thing but wait on him.

When exiting the building, they were met with his smiling face, and he asked them one question: "What did you do without me to lead you?" It was quite an awakening to those people. They were giving up rather than experiencing what it is to be a body, a family, to search out if there were any needs for provision and prayer, emotional support, mutual edification, anything that could be a need in each other's lives. They failed miserably because they gave up and were about to leave, and they learned a powerful lesson from that experience.

The elders also failed, because rather than guide everyone through the learning curve of being functional, they sat on their thumbs and watched the people mill about aimlessly. TRUE, biblical calbre elders would never have allowed such stumbling about. Needless to say, those "elders" showed just how illegitimate they really were as biblical elders.

It's too bad that more groups don't learn this lesson, because how much longer will groups be able to gather so openly in an increasingly hostile world? It needs to be understood and the lessons need to be learned right now, because change comes faster these days with the presence of technology and greed running at a feverish pitch.

Get ready, because the day is coming, perhaps in our lifetimes, when we will have to function without those men trained by our man-made institutions of allegedly "higher learning". Get ready to move forward with your brothers and sisters in Christ without the "luxury" of being led by the hand each week by a hired clergy class.

You men need to grow a spine if you don't have one, and be ready to stand up in crisis and be the corporate leaders whose hearts are reliant ONLY upon Christ as the Head, and be ready to shepherd as 1 Peter 5 says. Don't wait for the women to have to stand up in your place because you prefer to be nothing more than fellow bleating sheep, bemoaning the loss of the only guy who had that spine in his body.

BTW