Work It Out

[Mindonfire]

Work it Out

When trying to explain what is necessary of Salvation, One is always met with the typical response of, “Works are not necessary for salvation. ” Or “Works is a Law doctrine. We are not under the Law. We are under Grace.” So after continuously receiving the declarations of these bold but false proclamations, it is clearly evident that neither the young nor the old of this current generation of Believers, are aware of what is needed for Salvation. To continue to ignore all of the Biblical evidence, while continuing to vehemently insist that works are not a necessary ingredient for salvation, is the mark of one who is in a state of deep denial and illusion. All through the Scriptures, from Noah to Jesus Christ, it is clearly evident that works are part of the ingredient for Salvation.

By any chance, has anyone noticed that there are two types of works. And out of these two types of works, the first increases one’s chance of obtaining and maintaining Salvation.

1. Works of Faith: Works which are done through love and belief in the word of God. And because these works are done from love and faith, One is able to do them consistently and completely. And because they are accomplished consistently and completely, they are capable of leading One to Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Noah, Abraham, Lot, Rahab, Jesus Christ.

2. Works of the Law: Works which are done just because the Law states that One has to do them. Therefore, these works are done without any love or belief. And since they are done without any love or belief, One is unable to consistently continue in them. And if unable to consistently continue, One will not fulfill or complete them. And because One is unable to consistently and completely accomplish them, they are a hindrance to the obtainment of Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Adam and Eve, Lot’s wife, The Pharisees, and Sadducees




2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 10:10 Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[nobdysfool]

Work it Out

When trying to explain what is necessary of Salvation, One is always met with the typical response of, “Works are not necessary for salvation. ” Or “Works is a Law doctrine. We are not under the Law. We are under Grace.” So after continuously receiving the declarations of these bold but false proclamations, it is clearly evident that neither the young nor the old of this current generation of Believers, are aware of what is needed for Salvation. To continue to ignore all of the Biblical evidence, while continuing to vehemently insist that works are not a necessary ingredient for salvation, is the mark of one who is in a state of deep denial and illusion. All through the Scriptures, from Noah to Jesus Christ, it is clearly evident that works are part of the ingredient for Salvation.

By any chance, has anyone noticed that there are two types of works. And out of these two types of works, the first increases one’s chance of obtaining and maintaining Salvation.

1. Works of Faith: Works which are done through love and belief in the word of God. And because these works are done from love and faith, One is able to do them consistently and completely. And because they are accomplished consistently and completely, they are capable of leading One to Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Noah, Abraham, Lot, Rahab, Jesus Christ.

2. Works of the Law: Works which are done just because the Law states that One has to do them. Therefore, these works are done without any love or belief. And since they are done without any love or belief, One is unable to consistently continue in them. And if unable to consistently continue, One will not fulfill or complete them. And because One is unable to consistently and completely accomplish them, they are a hindrance to the obtainment of Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Adam and Eve, Lot’s wife, The Pharisees, and Sadducees




2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, [as] workers together [with him], beseech [you] also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Matthew 10:10 Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Nothing but false doctrine. The only work in salvation that saves is the Work of Christ. My response to that is to believe on Him and thereby receive His Work on my behalf. The Work of God is that ye believe on Him whom He has sent, i.e. Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

One does not do works such as you described to BE saved, those kind of works flow from a heart and life that HAS BEEN saved. You have it completely backwards, and as such are trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ.

By the works of the Law shall NO Flesh be justified. It can't be any plainer than that. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, not only for the Jew, but also for the Greek (Gentile). He has fulfilled the Law for us, so that we are counted as having fulfilled it, by virtue of our union with Him, by faith in Him, just as we are counted as having died with Him, and counted as having been raised with Him to newness of life.

Keep your works-based false salvation. I will trust in Jesus, who died for my sins and was raised for my justification.

 

[epistemaniac]

as you read through the Bible, how can you tell which type of works is being referred to, works of faith or works of the law?...... since the Bible does not, as far as I can tell, ever use the phrase "works of faith" are you saying that the only difference between the 2 is that one is done out of love, while the other is mere obligation?

since you say that Abraham was saved by works, albeit woirks of faith..... what do you do with Romans 4:1-5 NAU Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, " (caps not souting, its a quotation of the OT in the NT)
and
Galatians 3:2-11 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

blessings,
Ken

 

[A2597]

[SIZE=+2]Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Acts 16:31
Belive in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

John 5:47
Verily Verily I say until you, he that believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life.



I fail to see where works factor in. The Bible flat out tells you in Epesians that heaven is a gift we recive by faith, NOT BY WORKS.
[/SIZE]

 

[heymikey80]

[SIZE=+2]Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

What about ...
[/SIZE]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ep 2:10

It would seem to me that works are a product of God's work in us who are created in Christ Jesus. Does that factor in at a reasonable point?

 

[Ben johnson]

Nothing but false doctrine. The only work in salvation that saves is the Work of Christ. My response to that is to believe on Him and thereby receive His Work on my behalf. The Work of God is that ye believe on Him whom He has sent, i.e. Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Uhmmmm, "that we DO". Jn6:27

God does not WORK salvation in us, we DO His work. Do you dispute verse 27?

One does not do works such as you described to BE saved, those kind of works flow from a heart and life that HAS BEEN saved.

This one is "right". Salvation, at its essence, is "Christ in you". It is indwelt fellowship of love. Simple, complete.

As such, we CANNOT continue in sin, else we partner indwelling Jesus, and indwelling Holy Spirit, in sin.

God has prepared good works beforehand, for us to walk in; we walk in them THROUGH belief.

You have it completely backwards, and as such are trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ.

All religions, every one, is "works based". Christianity is "faith based".

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You do what you are".

Foundational difference...

By the works of the Law shall NO Flesh be justified. It can't be any plainer than that. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, not only for the Jew, but also for the Greek (Gentile). He has fulfilled the Law for us, so that we are counted as having fulfilled it, by virtue of our union with Him, by faith in Him, just as we are counted as having died with Him, and counted as having been raised with Him to newness of life.

Nicely said; true that.

Keep your works-based false salvation. I will trust in Jesus, who died for my sins and was raised for my justification.

Hmmm; how can you do anything else, NBF? Doesn't a monergistically-regenerated heart, make such "trusting" is irresistible? (No disrespect intended...)

 

[Mindonfire]

Nothing but false doctrine. The only work in salvation that saves is the Work of Christ. My response to that is to believe on Him and thereby receive His Work on my behalf. The Work of God is that ye believe on Him whom He has sent, i.e. Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

LOL! Listen to yourself, you make no sense. How is it the work of God if it is you that have to believe?

One does not do works such as you described to BE saved, those kind of works flow from a heart and life that HAS BEEN saved. You have it completely backwards, and as such are trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ.

Maybe you need to read the post again. Leave your canned doctrines at home and read the post again

By the works of the Law shall NO Flesh be justified. It can't be any plainer than that. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, not only for the Jew, but also for the Greek (Gentile). He has fulfilled the Law for us, so that we are counted as having fulfilled it, by virtue of our union with Him, by faith in Him, just as we are counted as having died with Him, and counted as having been raised with Him to newness of life.

Keep your works-based false salvation. I will trust in Jesus, who died for my sins and was raised for my justification.

Evidently, you are unable to comprehend what you read. Read and study for yourself. There are two types of works which are evident throughout the scriptures. Take your canned doctrines somewhere else and study for yourself.

 

[heymikey80]

...continuing to vehemently insist that works are not a necessary ingredient for salvation, is the mark of one who is in a state of deep denial and illusion. ...

I think the issue gets cranked up with the subtlety of wording that's required on this point. If something's an ingredient for salvation, it would have to be added to produce salvation.

Paul reacts against this wording by saying "By grace you are saved, through faith, not out of works, ... but unto good works" Ep 2:8-10

Then you say something which I think rings true, where this work is a product of which saving faith is an ingredient:

1. Works of Faith: Works which are done through love and belief in the word of God. And because these works are done from love and faith, One is able to do them consistently and completely.

With this I'd strongly agree. Works done out of faith and love. That makes great sense to me. But with this ...

And because they are accomplished consistently and completely, they are capable of leading One to Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Noah, Abraham, Lot, Rahab, Jesus Christ.

You can see how here, if you are really consistently, completely doing this from love and belief, that your love and belief are complete, and then issue in good works. So the works don't add to your salvation -- from saving faith springs good works (cf. Ep 2:10)

If you were run over by a truck as you received this love and belief (or more properly crucified or run through, which has happened more often), then Christ would save you. You are already complete with the faith that acts.

But given time, the Spirit, opportunity, this saving faith takes action. The actions aren't an essential ingredient to your salvation. They won't "make the cake go flat" if they're missing. Faith saves, alone. But given the rest, faith will take action to outwork what power God has inworked into us. (Pp 2:12-13)

This has been the position of Reformed Christianity for awhile (The Marrow of Modern Divinity, 1600's, and more embedded in "Institutes of the Christian Religion", 1500's ).

 

[Iosias]

1. Works of Faith: Works which are done through love and belief in the word of God. And because these works are done from love and faith, One is able to do them consistently and completely. And because they are accomplished consistently and completely, they are capable of leading One to Salvation. Examples which are given in the Bible: Noah, Abraham, Lot, Rahab, Jesus Christ.

These are proof of salvation not a cause of it.
Heb 11:1-40 "Now, faith is the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not. For by this the ancients obtained a testimony. By faith we understand that the world was framed by the word of God: that from invisible things visible things might be made. By faith Abel offered to God a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, God giving testimony to his gifts. And by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Henoch was translated that he should not see death: and he was not found because God had translated him. For before his translation he had testimony that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is: and is a rewarder to them that seek him. By faith Noe, having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen, moved with fear, framed the ark for the saving of his house: by the which he condemned the world and was instituted heir of the justice which is by faith. By faith he that is called Abraham obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he abode in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in cottages, with Isaac and Jacob, the co-heirs of the same promise. For he looked for a city that hath foundations: whose builder and maker is God. By faith also Sara herself, being barren, received strength to conceive seed, even past the time of age: because she believed that he was faithful who had promised, For which cause there sprung even from one (and him as good as dead) as the stars of heaven in multitude and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. All these died according to faith, not having received the promises but beholding them afar off and saluting them and confessing that they are pilgrims and strangers on the earth. For they that say these things do signify that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that from whence they came out, they had doubtless, time to return. But now they desire a better, that is to say, a heavenly country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (To whom it was said: In Isaac shalt thy seed be called Accounting that God is able to raise up even from the dead. Whereupon also he received him for a parable. By faith also of things to come Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau. By faith Jacob, dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and adored the top of his rod. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the going out of the children of Israel and gave commandment concerning his bones. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents: because they saw he was a comely babe, and they feared not the king's edict. By faith Moses, when he was grown up, denied himself to be the son of Pharao's daughter: Rather choosing to be afflicted with the people of God than to have the pleasure of sin for a time: Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasure of the Egyptians. For he looked unto the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the fierceness of the king: for he endured, as seeing him that is invisible. By faith he celebrated the pasch and the shedding of the blood: that he who destroyed the firstborn might not touch them. By faith they passed through the Red Sea, as by dry land: which the Egyptians attempting, were swallowed up. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, by the going round them seven days. By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with the unbelievers, receiving the spies with peace. And what shall I yet say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, Barac, Samson, Jephthe, David, Samuel, and the prophets: Who by faith conquered kingdoms, wrought justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, recovered strength from weakness, became valiant in battle, put to flight the armies of foreigners. Women received their dead raised to life again. But others were racked, not accepting deliverance, that they might find a better resurrection. And others had trial of mockeries and stripes: moreover also of bands and prisons. They were stoned, they were cut asunder, they were tempted, they were put to death by the sword, they wandered about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in want, distressed, afflicted: Of whom the world was not worthy: wandering in deserts, in mountains and in dens and in caves of the earth. And all these, being approved by the testimony of faith, received not the promise: God providing some better thing for us, that they should not be perfected without us."

 

[nobdysfool]

LOL! Listen to yourself, you make no sense. How is it the work of God if it is you that have to believe?

Reading comperhension is not one of your strong suits, is it?

Maybe you need to read the post again. Leave your canned doctrines at home and read the post again

What "canned doctrine"? I simply stated the logical conclusion of what you said. Maybe you need to read your own post again, bucko.

Evidently, you are unable to comprehend what you read. Read and study for yourself. There are two types of works which are evident throughout the scriptures. Take your canned doctrines somewhere else and study for yourself.

Do you disagree with the scripture I quoted? Because it shoots your bass-ackward view down? My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you, but yours needs some work. You obviously don't understand or accept the doctrines of substitution, imputation, and Justification by faith alone, in Christ alone. You believe you must add to the Work of Christ to be saved and to remain saved, by your own efforts. That much is clear as can be, and completely unscriptural.

You're the one who needs to do some studying....

 

[nobdysfool]

Uhmmmm, "that we DO". Jn6:27

God does not WORK salvation in us, we DO His work. Do you dispute verse 27?
This one is "right". Salvation, at its essence, is "Christ in you". It is indwelt fellowship of love. Simple, complete.

As such, we CANNOT continue in sin, else we partner indwelling Jesus, and indwelling Holy Spirit, in sin.

God has prepared good works beforehand, for us to walk in; we walk in them THROUGH belief. All religions, every one, is "works based". Christianity is "faith based".

Religion: "You are what you do."
Christianity: "You do what you are".

Foundational difference...
Nicely said; true that.
Hmmm; how can you do anything else, NBF? Doesn't a monergistically-regenerated heart, make such "trusting" is irresistible? (No disrespect intended...)

Your last comment was a cheap shot, and disrepectful in the extreme. Must you drag your hatred of predestination and election into EVERY thread, and every post you make?

Eslewhere I have addressed your tactics in more detail.

 

[Ben johnson]

I think it's valid, NBF. There are those who say "we do good works to BE saved", and there are those who say "we do good works because we ARE saved". The second is the message of Scripture, of Jesus' Gospel.

Of the second, there is a further difference -- those who say "we do good works with diligence, keeping ourselves in Christ so that our good works DISPLAY our position", and there are those who say "our position, and hence the good works we do, were all decided by God long ago."

So I think the answer he's really seeking, lies between what he said, and what you said. And that would be what I said.

We do not work FOR salvation, but our works will expose our HEARTS; "good" works if saved, "bad" works if not. And there is full responsibility. Salvation is not something done TO us, but something we DO, by believing and receiving Jesus.

Our works also become our own measure of our walk with Jesus; hence Paul's admonishment to "examine yourselves, to see if you are in Christ; Christ is in you, unless you fail the test."[/b]

Romans2:6-8 says "we will be judged by our works"; and two outcomes present, "eternal life", and "wrath" (Hell). So too Rev20. But it is not the list-of-deeds that saves us, but rather if our names are written in His Book of Life.

Saving-faith is not a work we do, it is GOD'S work that we do. Clear concept in Jn6:27-29. The deeds which follow, come from Christ-in-us --- who DWELLS, THROUGH our continued faith.

It is not a question of "working our way to Heaven", but "abiding in Him-our-Savior". Diligence, perseverance, watching ourselves, walking in Him, keeping ourselves in His love, obeying His voice; using the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep from sin.

Many verses support that; citations upon request.

 

[nobdysfool]

I think it's valid, NBF. There are those who say "we do good works to BE saved", and there are those who say "we do good works because we ARE saved". The second is the message of Scripture, of Jesus' Gospel.

Of the second, there is a further difference -- those who say "we do good works with diligence, keeping ourselves in Christ so that our good works DISPLAY our position", and there are those who say "our position, and hence the good works we do, were all decided by God long ago."

So I think the answer he's really seeking, lies between what he said, and what you said. And that would be what I said.

We do not work FOR salvation, but our works will expose our HEARTS; "good" works if saved, "bad" works if not. And there is full responsibility. Salvation is not something done TO us, but something we DO, by believing and receiving Jesus.

Our works also become our own measure of our walk with Jesus; hence Paul's admonishment to "examine yourselves, to see if you are in Christ; Christ is in you, unless you fail the test."[/b]

Romans2:6-8 says "we will be judged by our works"; and two outcomes present, "eternal life", and "wrath" (Hell). So too Rev20. But it is not the list-of-deeds that saves us, but rather if our names are written in His Book of Life.

Saving-faith is not a work we do, it is GOD'S work that we do. Clear concept in Jn6:27-29. The deeds which follow, come from Christ-in-us --- who DWELLS, THROUGH our continued faith.

It is not a question of "working our way to Heaven", but "abiding in Him-our-Savior". Diligence, perseverance, watching ourselves, walking in Him, keeping ourselves in His love, obeying His voice; using the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to keep from sin.

Many verses support that; citations upon request.

Ben, you totally missed either by accident or by intent, what I was referring to in your post. This latest post of yours has nothing to do with the last one I posted to you. I would prefer you not reply to me if you can't address what I actually said, rather than trying to turn it into something else.

 

[Mindonfire]

I think the issue gets cranked up with the subtlety of wording that's required on this point. If something's an ingredient for salvation, it would have to be added to produce salvation.

Correct. Look at Noah

Paul reacts against this wording by saying "By grace you are saved, through faith, not out of works, ... but unto good works" Ep 2:8-10

Now read the following:


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[Mindonfire]

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Acts 16:31
Belive in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

John 5:47
Verily Verily I say until you, he that believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life.



I fail to see where works factor in. The Bible flat out tells you in Epesians that heaven is a gift we recive by faith, NOT BY WORKS.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[Mindonfire]

Do you disagree with the scripture I quoted? Because it shoots your bass-ackward view down? My reading comprehension is just fine, thank you, but yours needs some work. You obviously don't understand or accept the doctrines of substitution, imputation, and Justification by faith alone, in Christ alone. You believe you must add to the Work of Christ to be saved and to remain saved, by your own efforts. That much is clear as can be, and completely unscriptural.
You're the one who needs to do some studying....

LOL! First of all you must be thinking about another thread beacause you did not post any scriptures Here is what you posted:

Nothing but false doctrine. The only work in salvation that saves is the Work of Christ. My response to that is to believe on Him and thereby receive His Work on my behalf. The Work of God is that ye believe on Him whom He has sent, i.e. Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

One does not do works such as you described to BE saved, those kind of works flow from a heart and life that HAS BEEN saved. You have it completely backwards, and as such are trusting in yourself for salvation, not Christ.

By the works of the Law shall NO Flesh be justified. It can't be any plainer than that. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Law, not only for the Jew, but also for the Greek (Gentile). He has fulfilled the Law for us, so that we are counted as having fulfilled it, by virtue of our union with Him, by faith in Him, just as we are counted as having died with Him, and counted as having been raised with Him to newness of life.

Keep your works-based false salvation. I will trust in Jesus, who died for my sins and was raised for my justification.

 

[heymikey80]

Now read the following:
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Yes. I'm looking in detail at three verses including these two:

Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works Jas 2:20-22
​

More incidentally I'd like to understand these verses in the context they were stated or written, from around 2:18-24.

Two things about these verses:

1. They are addressing ... the reader. They're not addressing how God declares people righteous, but how the reader sees righteous people. Twice James calls attention to "you observe -- you see" this righteousness.
2. That's an outworking of what Paul calls "righteousness from God" -- which is a declaration from God that someone is in the right. It's evidence brought for us to agree with the verdict. It's not something added to make someone righteous. It's not the cause of righteousness. It's the evidence of a righteousness that already exists.

To extend the point often made since the Reformation, this leaves only one phrase up for conflict: "Abraham was justified by works". But when the observer who is making the judgement is shown to be us, well, let's face it, we don't ever see faith. We see works. And we certainly can't make people righteous. Instead we trace back those works to declare that Abraham was righteous. That's what the word "justify" normally means in Greek. It's used in law courts to declare a person "not guilty" or "vindicated". Such a verdict doesn't make a person into a just man. It merely declares that his righteousness is vindicated by the evidence.

Put in James' context, that makes a sense out of what James is saying. James isn't saying God declares people righteous by works. James would be saying we are shown righteousness emerging in works in people's lives, and on that basis we declare them righteous. That's a great expansion of his prior point: 'But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.' Jas 2:18

 

[Ben johnson]

Mindonfire, James2:24 makes your case stronger:

"You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone".

But this must also harmonize with what was quoted above, "By grace have you been saved through faith ....NOT as a result of works lest anyone boast. For we are His workmanship, created to walk in good works that He has prepared beforehand that we might walk in them."

Have you read 2Pet1:5-8? These "qualities", are not optional. In the same way that "godliness", and "self-control", and "morality", and "kindness and love" WILL accompany the saved, good works also WILL accompany the saved.

And this is because of the "essence of salvation"; to be saved, is to have an indwelt fellowship of love with the persons of Jesus and the Spirit. As such, they INDWELL the believer; thus the works we do, are really JESUS doing our good works THROUGH us.

Make sense?

 

[nobdysfool]

LOL! First of all you must be thinking about another thread beacause you did not post any scriptures Here is what you posted:

"by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified". I didn't put the scripture reference after it, because I thought you'd be smart enough to recognize the words of scripture. (Romans 3:20, just so you know.....)

Evidently, I was wrong....

Now who looks stupid???

 

[Mindonfire]

"by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified". I didn't put the scripture reference after it, because I thought you'd be smart enough to recognize the words of scripture. (Romans 3:20, just so you know.....)

Evidently, I was wrong....

Now who looks stupid???

LOL! One would advise you to study Romans 3:20 over again. Study the words carefully. Leave those canned doctrines alone and study the words carefullu for yourself.


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.