Words of knowledge

Tigger45 · Apr 13, 2022

Should we pray to receive God's gifts, sure but like others have posted I believe ending any and all prayers with "Thy will be done" I believe opens your faith beyon our own wills to God's will.

I also tend to be more receptive to God's leading when staying immersed in His scripture daily.

And last but not least the majority of (Words of wisdom or knowledge) I've received came by the sermon of my pastors preaching.

topher694 · Apr 13, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
Well yes, actually, as well as the authority of the early church apostles.

Now some would say that there are no real parallels between present church leadership and the leadership of Israel at the time of Christ, but I think more parallels can be found to this effect than the opposite. They were covetous for one thing, and we see a lot of covetousness in church leadership today. They were superficial, and we also see a lot of that. Most of all they were controlling, and refused to let their positions of spiritual "authority" be questioned, which might be the most damning one of all.

Several times in Israel's history God chose those who were of no account to "bring to nought those who were," and shamed the leadership of the nation by raising up those who were truly anointed of God. It would seem presumptuous of us to assume that this pattern has now somehow stopped, and that the leadership of the church need never again be doubted or questioned.

Right. There is nothing new under the sun. The personal and corporate issues of man and the church are no different today than they were then... only the setting has changed. Saying I will only receive words from recognized leaders may sound good on the surface, but it is nothing more than a form of pride... *I* know better. *I* know who is worth listening to and who isn't. You've articulated well why that is actually not the case. God is not a respecter of persons. He can use anyone.

That doesn't mean we throw discernment out the window. We should still test any word given to us. We should consider the fruit of the person releasing the word. A leadership position could be a part of that test. But if God can speak truth though a non-leadership donkey, I think any believer is capable.

Hidden In Him · Apr 13, 2022

topher694 said:
But if God can speak truth though a non-leadership donkey, I think any believer is capable.

God saw it all in advance, and said, "There's hope for you all," Lol.

Pride can often be part of the problem, but sometimes it is simply placing too much trust in established authority. I mean, the NT writers did indeed lay stress on submitting to those in authority, but they never said to do so unquestioningly. In principle what Oscarr is saying would be true; if things were as they should be then the leadership of churches would always consist of the strongest believers out there. But the reality is unfortunately far afield from the ideal, and if this is not accounted for one runs the risk of rejecting one truly sent from God for someone who merely sits in a position of power. Granted, letting every "Tom, Dick and Harry" pray over you could lead to problems as well, but I find the bigger problem by far these days is that those seated in positions of authority do not actually have the spiritual authority they purport themselves to have.

I'd be more spooked by most leaders laying hands on me these days than I would a layman, because most laymen (unless they are climbing the ladder) are not out for something. If they do so, there is a better chance IMO that it is simply at the leading of the Holy Spirit. The same cannot be said, IMO, when it comes to leadership. Though certainly not all, many these days are looking to make an impression, either for the sake of money or notoriety or control or some combination of the three. I have seen it way too many times to teach otherwise, and so has most everyone else out there if they are being honest.

topher694 · Apr 13, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
God saw it all in advance, and said, "There's hope for you all," Lol.

Pride can often be part of the problem, but sometimes it is simply placing too much trust in established authority. I mean, the NT writers did indeed lay stress on submitting to those in authority, but they never said to do so unquestioningly. In principle what Oscarr is saying would be true; if things were as they should be then the leadership of churches would always consist of the strongest believers out there. But the reality is unfortunately far afield from the ideal, and if this is not accounted for one runs the risk of rejecting one truly sent from God for someone who merely sits in a position of power. Granted, letting every "Tom, Dick and Harry" pray over you could lead to problems as well, but I find the bigger problem by far these days is that those seated in positions of authority do not actually have the spiritual authority they purport themselves to have.

I'd be more spooked by most leaders laying hands on me these days than I would a layman, because most layman (unless they are climbing the ladder) are not out for something. If they do so, there is a better chance IMO that it is simply at the leading of the Holy Spirit. The same cannot be said, IMO, when it comes to leadership. Though certainly not all, many these days are looking to make an impression, either for the sake of money or notoriety or control or some combination of the three. I have seen it way too many times to teach otherwise, and so has most everyone else out there if they are being honest.

Agreed. However, in this particular case I think pride is the main culprit.

Hidden In Him · Apr 13, 2022

topher694 said:
Agreed. However, in this particular case I think pride is the main culprit.

Ouch.

topher694 · Apr 13, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
Ouch.

lol, well that's simply my assessment based on these comments and past comments, it can be considered or rejected as such... I'm pretty sure I know which will happen.

ARBITER01 · Apr 13, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
Several times in Israel's history God chose those who were of no account to "bring to nought those who were," and shamed the leadership of the nation by raising up those who were truly anointed of God. It would seem presumptuous of us to assume that this pattern has now somehow stopped, and that the leadership of the church need never again be doubted or questioned.

The body of Christ is ripe for just such an event happening.

Carl Emerson · Apr 13, 2022

Isn't a factor in the present leadership crisis the absence of discernment?

Discernment is biblically associated with the Prophetic but we have neglected to found on the Apostles and Prophets.

This combines with a flawed structure which neglects unity among leadership and mutual submission.

I guess pride is a driver in the church as well...

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 13, 2022

Hidden In Him said:
Ugh. Some posts almost demand involvement, Lol.

Greetings, Oscarr, and hope you are well. Your position assumes you know who the true leaders in a church are, based merely on structure. This is often not the case. I have been in churches where unfortunately the leaders were not actually the strongest people in the congregation spiritually, and I have seen them outright quench services by taking control of them in the flesh.

I think the biggest reason why the church as a whole is in the mess it is in today is specifically because of the leadership, and that it will take a completely different class of leader before the church ever comes out of this awful spiritual malaise we are in.

That said, pinning the operation of the gifts to the leadership becomes, IMO, a one way ticket to certain failure for the church.

Yes. There is a difference between the ideal and the reality.

When people quote Scripture to show how a spiritual gift should function, they are talking in terms of the ideal. So when I say that the function of spiritual gifts are for a church leadership, I am referring to the ideal church leadership of truly godly men and women.

After spending many years in Pentecostal churches, I have experienced the difference between excellent church leadership and leaders who show that they have no calling for leadership, causing congregations to groan under them and walk away from the church.

It is unfair to single out Pentecostal and Charismatic church leaders in this regard. It is the same across all church denominations. In my small Union church, we had a minister who was more into preaching social justice and ecology than actually preaching Christ. Over the ten years he was minister, most of the congregation either died off or found other churches. When I joined it in December 2019, there were just 15 people meeting for a Sunday morning service.

Hidden In Him · Apr 13, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Isn't a factor in the present leadership crisis the absence of discernment?

I think lack of discernment is a huge part of the problem as well, yes, and stems in part from many not having developed the ability to hear His voice, in particular prophetically. I think it is when there is a large enough component of the church who begins to possess these thugs again that we will finally start to see a change, from the top down starting with the leadership.

So if you are saying it is not just a leadership problem, I suppose I agree, though if the leadership were better this could start changing things in a hurry. The sheep are not ultimately responsible for the flock, the shepherds are.

Hidden In Him · Apr 13, 2022

Oscarr said:
It is unfair to single out Pentecostal and Charismatic church leaders in this regard. It is the same across all church denominations. In my small Union church, we had a minister who was more into preaching social justice and ecology than actually preaching Christ. Over the ten years he was minister, most of the congregation either died off or found other churches. When I joined it in December 2019, there were just 15 people meeting for a Sunday morning service.

Yes. I was referring to the entire church as a whole. I think it goes without saying that all churches would be Charismatic if the leadership were truly anointed, and they would be stressing to their congregations the need to pray earnestly for the gifts until they were manifested for real, not falsified and then ridiculed by the church and the world.

lismore · Apr 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Isn't a factor in the present leadership crisis the absence of discernment?.

Hello Carl! Do you think there is a 'present leadership crisis'? Is that what you detect where you are? Here there are several strong local churches with good, Godly leadership. Some weirdness from the state churches, big name ministries and perhaps the perception of oddness from hyper churches, but I wouldn't say it's a crisis. If someone wants to find a strong local church then there are options. God Bless

Carl Emerson · Apr 14, 2022

lismore said:
Hello Carl! Do you think there is a 'present leadership crisis'? Is that what you detect where you are? Here there are several strong local churches with good, Godly leadership. Some weirdness from the state churches, big name ministries and perhaps the perception of oddness from hyper churches, but I wouldn't say it's a crisis. If someone wants to find a strong local church then there are options. God Bless

Appreciate that - however in terms of being led towards vibrant community that impacts society and sees transformation growth we mostly don't score well...

lismore · Apr 14, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
Appreciate that - however in terms of being led towards vibrant community that impacts society and sees transformation growth we mostly don't score well...

Hi Carl. Thanks for your reply. As for impacting society I live in a University town, we see many salvations among the students, particularly Chinese, in several churches. It might just be that the Lord needs to lead folks in your area to the right niche group to serve and evangelize. Maybe words of knowledge from the Lord along those lines could show the way. I think vibrancy is closely related to evangelism- the Dead Sea is dead because water flows in but no water flows out. A church needs to evangelize effectively otherwise it will become foostie. God Bless

Carl Emerson · Apr 14, 2022

lismore said:
Hi Carl. Thanks for your reply. As for impacting society I live in a University town, we see many salvations among the students, particularly Chinese, in several churches. It might just be that the Lord needs to lead folks in your area to the right niche group to serve and evangelize. Maybe words of knowledge from the Lord along those lines could show the way. I think vibrancy is closely related to evangelism- the Dead Sea is dead because water flows in but no water flows out. A church needs to evangelize effectively otherwise it will become foostie. God Bless

Yes totally agree...

Glad to hear of the life in your area.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 24, 2022

Just a thought...
Don't trust in a word of knowledge from someone holding an iPhone or an iPad.

tturt · Apr 26, 2022

Gifts are not rewards for leadership nor any other believer. Leadership is to help equip the saints which would be aiding in the gifts.

One example- A church had 60 prophetic receivers who would submit what they were hearing to an associate pastor. He would present it to the congregation.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 26, 2022

ByTheSpirit said:
For anyone who has moved in a word of knowledge, how did you know the Holy Spirit was revealing something to you? Is it a urge that you just know that you know? I've been praying for this gift and am curious in what ways I can expect the Holy Spirit to speak to me.

I have often moved in words of knowledge as I have been witnessing to people, for me when you witness God just speaks things to you, and they seem safe to share. I have never really done anything too wild. For example, God will often tell me when witnessing, or speaking to someone, what that person does for a job, or likes doing in their spare time. These are easy things to share because it is safe to say to a person, "are you a musician", "do you study medicine". To the person, when you get it right, they probably wonder how you knew. But it is all safe. If I could stretch my faith, God may use greater things, but these simple ones still help.

ByTheSpirit · Apr 26, 2022

FutureAndAHope said:
I have often moved in words of knowledge as I have been witnessing to people, for me when you witness God just speaks things to you, and they seem safe to share. I have never really done anything too wild. For example, God will often tell me when witnessing, or speaking to someone, what that person does for a job, or likes doing in their spare time. These are easy things to share because it is safe to say to a person, "are you a musician", "do you study medicine". To the person, when you get it right, they probably wonder how you knew. But it is all safe. If I could stretch my faith, God may use greater things, but these simple ones still help.

thanks for sharing!

tturt · Apr 27, 2022

We refer to it as conversational prophecy.

Words of knowledge

Mt 9:13..."I desire mercy, not sacrifice"...

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