WooHoo Submission

[Created2Write]

I have never heard it preached in any church I've attended either. The one time Jason and I asked our Pastor for prayer put us up in front of a bunch of leaders and strangers we had never met before to tell them what was going on. The issue wasn't even a marriage issue. The issue was with some weird dreams I was having, and instead of just praying for me like we asked, he put me in front of strangers, all of them telling me what I was supposedly doing wrong. One had the audacity to suggest that my dreams were from a lack of submission, which was completely false.

I have never heard submission taught in church. Not in the...five churches I've attended regularly. Never once. Not even in premarital counseling.

 

[chaz345]

Great, now we're equating submission teaching with child abuse. ANything to keep up the emotional response, right?

 

[Lilymay]

In the three churches I have been to as an adult..... one of them had a sermon series on submission.

 

[mkgal1]

I think it's more common to have just little subtle phrases here and there. Like this....in an article on 10 Ways to Strengthen Your Marriage:

1. Learn to be tastefully transparent: Be open and honest with those you are accountable to, but do not dishonor your spouse with your "sharing."

Sounds innocuous....right? But....what IS "tastefully transparent"? And....most women would feel it to be "dishonoring" to share about any sort of major sin issue that is destructing a marriage....so, it sort of leaves any "sharing" off the table.

 

[illudium_phosdex]

I don't think so, Chaz, I just mentioned that at two of the churches I went to, Debi Pearl's book Created to be his Help Meet was used as part of the women's Bible study. It was then mentioned that the Pearls also have a book entitled To Train up a Child which has led to abuse in some instances. I will say that in the Created book, Mrs. Pearl does advocate allowing your husband to abuse your children and continuing to be all submissive in the hopes that your submission would bring him around. I'm rolling my eyes even now as I type this. Anyway, I'm just saying that this was a pretty natural progression of the conversation from the topic at hand.

 

[Created2Write]

I think it's more common to have just little subtle phrases here and there. Like this....in an article on 10 Ways to Strengthen Your Marriage:



Sounds innocuous....right? But....what IS "tastefully transparent"? And....most women would feel it to be "dishonoring" to share about any sort of major sin issue that is destructing a marriage....so, it sort of leaves any "sharing" off the table.

I think the tastefully transparent is more about how you say things/bring issues up as opposed to what is brought up. I wouldn't feel it was dishonoring me for my husband to be honest about struggles he was having. I would feel dishonored if he just blamed me for it all and didn't take responsibility for his own actions.

That's what I take from that, anyway. I didn't see anything there about submission at all.

 

[JaneFW]

Great, now we're equating submission teaching with child abuse. ANything to keep up the emotional response, right?

No, it was just a side comment, not the theme. I don't see that there is a lot of emotional response going on?

 

[mkgal1]

I don't think so, Chaz, I just mentioned that at two of the churches I went to, Debi Pearl's book Created to be his Help Meet was used as part of the women's Bible study. It was then mentioned that the Pearls also have a book entitled To Train up a Child which has led to abuse in some instances. I will say that in the Created book, Mrs. Pearl does advocate allowing your husband to abuse your children and continuing to be all submissive in the hopes that your submission would bring him around. I'm rolling my eyes even now as I type this. Anyway, I'm just saying that this was a pretty natural progression of the conversation from the topic at hand.

It really does all roll into each other, because part of the "everything" in Ephesians 5 and a woman's life (that has children) is child raising. Each and every area of her life is affected.

 

[Conservativation]

I don't think so, Chaz, I just mentioned that at two of the churches I went to, Debi Pearl's book Created to be his Help Meet was used as part of the women's Bible study. It was then mentioned that the Pearls also have a book entitled To Train up a Child which has led to abuse in some instances. I will say that in the Created book, Mrs. Pearl does advocate allowing your husband to abuse your children and continuing to be all submissive in the hopes that your submission would bring him around. I'm rolling my eyes even now as I type this. Anyway, I'm just saying that this was a pretty natural progression of the conversation from the topic at hand.

Please be specific....if this is just an anti-spanking hyperbole, then say so, if its really saying either literally "dads abuse your children and wives let them" well, frankly, I do not believe it does, if it says "dads beat your children and wives allow it"....OK, thats objectively stupid.....but if this is a veiled way to express anti-spanking sentiment, its disingenuous to say it like this, and to use it to "pile on" in this thread is even more disingenuous


Ahhh, I just read it...it says "switching" the child.....so, I assure everyone I have zero interest in debating child discipline, I have a great interest in correcting the disingenuous use of that by calling it telling wives to ALLOW the husband to abuse the child, when not everyone would see that as abuse. Its utterly unrelated to the submission topic, and its less than 100% open and honest to word it as such to turn the temperature up even further.

Ive only heard it preached 1 or 2 times, and when it was it was so incredibly vague, and what i would call apologetic that first everyone listening could get what they wanted to get from it, so it was not really being taught at all, IOW the preacher took no position on it.

Having it in the womens Bible study is VERY different than having it preached....so different that it shouldnt be included as "a chucrh that teaches submission"...in the context of threads like this. because what those claiming its bad submission teaching ruining marriages are saying is that MEN are getting taught this along with the women, and that the marriage is being acted out on that basis, and that this teaching is ubiquitous. But, if its confined to the women's study, it wouldnt be one of those dasterdly churches creating mouth breathing men

 

[mkgal1]

There is no need to get into specifics about child discipline..........but, if the teaching is literal (as some of us have experienced)....lots of things fall under the category of "EVERYTHING".

One of the counselors that we went to told us about how in his wife's first marriage, she was "delivered" from that marriage. Her first husband was an alcoholic and would get physical with her. He ended up getting in a single car accident that killed him (while driving drunk). The counselor used that as "proof" that when God says it's over......it's over. A month later our newpaper showed how UNtrue that is......when Laci Peterson (and her unborn son, Connor) were murdered.

 

[hijklmnop]

Apparently some counselors need their own heads examined. It's scary the advice some people are getting from "professionals". This is why shopping around for a GOOD counselor is a must.

 

[JaneFW]

Please be specific....if this is just an anti-spanking hyperbole, then say so, if its really saying either literally "dads abuse your children and wives let them" well, frankly, I do not believe it does, if it says "dads beat your children and wives allow it"....OK, thats objectively stupid.....but if this is a veiled way to express anti-spanking sentiment, its disingenuous to say it like this, and to use it to "pile on" in this thread is even more disingenuous


Ahhh, I just read it...it says "switching" the child.....so, I assure everyone I have zero interest in debating child discipline, I have a great interest in correcting the disingenuous use of that by calling it telling wives to ALLOW the husband to abuse the child, when not everyone would see that as abuse. Its utterly unrelated to the submission topic, and its less than 100% open and honest to word it as such to turn the temperature up even further.

You know what, if I want to make a side comment to another person, I will. It's not "turning up the temperature" because there is NO heat in this thread, none. Only the heat that other people are imagining.

Ive only heard it preached 1 or 2 times, and when it was it was so incredibly vague, and what i would call apologetic that first everyone listening could get what they wanted to get from it, so it was not really being taught at all, IOW the preacher took no position on it.

Is preaching not teaching?

Having it in the womens Bible study is VERY different than having it preached....so different that it shouldnt be included as "a chucrh that teaches submission"...in the context of threads like this. because what those claiming its bad submission teaching ruining marriages are saying is that MEN are getting taught this along with the women, and that the marriage is being acted out on that basis, and that this teaching is ubiquitous. But, if its confined to the women's study, it wouldnt be one of those dasterdly churches creating mouth breathing men

What? I don't understand that final paragraph at all.

If anyone is going to make this a feature of marriage, shouldn't it be taught to everyone? Why would it only be taught to women? Aren't many of those who are proposing submission .. men? Those jumping in yesterday and calling people "sinful" were men.

 

[hijklmnop]

Debbie Pearl in "Created to be his ___________" [Doormat] encourages a wife whose husband is committing adultery to dress up like a hooker and beat the OW at seduction.

ummm... what happened to 1 Peter 3:1-2?

The Pearls are the teachers that the Schatz' followed when they killed one of their adopted Liberian daughters by beating her with a plumbing hose until her kidneys failed. Godly discipline turned deadly - Parenting - Salon.com

Is there a vomiting smilie?

 

[hijklmnop]

FTR, yes, I have attended churches where submission was taught.

 

[JaneFW]

I think you get my idea ... most of the stuff I have read is all theory, no practice. I would also be interested in reading the stories of women who strongly disagreed with their husbands, went along with them anyway, and had good or bad results. For example, maybe they sometimes say, "His idea was, in my view, bad, and I went along with it anyway, and the results were bad; but at least I obeyed God and was a loving and supportive wife and that's the most important thing."

This makes me laugh - in an ironic way - because it says the writer would like to hear stories of women who disagreed with husbands, and had good or bad results, but then she says .. "for example, maybe they say .. at least I obeyed God .. and that's the most important thing."

That's not getting the true picture. That's telling people exactly what you want to hear: I disagreed, I went along with it anyway, and that was the most important thing. What if women write and say, I disagreed, I went along with it, and it was a terrible decision? I suspect that those letters would be tossed in the trash. Or, I disagreed, I let him use our life savings, and we're now destitute, but at least I was an obedient wife. What? No, I'm sorry, that's nonsense.

 

[JaneFW]

Is there a vomiting smilie?

 

[Conservativation]

"""The Pearls are the teachers that the Schatz' followed when they killed one of their adopted Liberian daughters by beating her with a plumbing hose until her kidneys failed.""

Pure libel. I will apologize in advance to the crowd who will get worked up because they cannot see that I am not defending abuse, thats not the point of this post, but some folks think fuzzy on emotional topics, but this claim is libelous and unecessary.

I could say about any Christian who committed a crime "He/she was following the teachings of Jesus when he/she did xyz"

This kind of hyperbole lacks integrity, and is not necessary. If you dislike the writers, then set forth your case, personally Ive never read any of it and don't care, and the case will stand or fall, NOT because its linked in this superficial silly way to a murder, but because of real pros and cons. I always marvel at these kinds of claims, and I especially marvel at the selectivity of those who stoop to use them when it can so easily be turned around and used against you, and its invalid in either case. The book doesnt recommend anything that a sane person would take to beat a kid with a hose and kill the child. If however it presses the right emotional buttons for you, and you get a vicarious punch in on the writers you loath, I guess go for it.....but, its shameful and cheap to do.

 

[JaneFW]

* double post

 

[JaneFW]

Couple sentenced for 'religious' beating death and torture of children

What the police found when they searched the Paradise home … sheds some light on the Schatzes’ private lives, and their adherence to Christian fundamentalist ideals, in particular the writings of one well-known couple.

Police found, on the Schatzes’ bed, a 15-inch section of PVC tube, a quarter-inch thick. They believe it to be the murder weapon, as both Lydia and Zariah had “whip-like” marks that matched the length and width of the pipe. It lay beside a children’s book.
The PVC tube may seem like a strange punishment tool, but for those familiar with the teachings of Christian fundamentalists and authors Michael and Debi Pearl, it is nothing new.

“There was some evidence that indicates they were familiar with the Pearls’ publications,” Ramsey said of the Schatzes. Police interviews with the other children revealed they, too, had been on the receiving end of the “rod.”
On the Pearls’ Web page, nogreaterjoy.org, Michael Pearl writes about “training” children in two sections titled “In Defense of Biblical Chastisement,” parts one and two: “As a rule, do not use your hand. Hands are for loving and helping. If an adult swings his or her hand fast enough to cause pain to the surface of the skin, there is a danger of damaging bones and joints. The most painful nerves are just under the surface of the skin. A swift swat with a light, flexible instrument will sting without bruising or causing internal damage. Many people are using a section of 1/4 inch plumber’s supply line as a spanking instrument. It will fit in your purse or hang around your neck. You can buy them for under $1.00 at Home Depot or any hardware store. They come cheaper by the dozen and can be widely distributed in every room and vehicle. Just the high profile of their accessibility keeps the kids in line.”

If it was libel, why are the Pearls not suing?

Also:

Kevin Sears, Elizabeth Schatz’s attorney, said the case was a tragedy and didn’t dispute the death or injury. However, he asserted the probation report wasn’t wholly accurate. In particular, he said the hours of whipping were interrupted with periods of prayer and reflection.

Well so long as they prayed inbetween bouts of beating their children, that makes it okay.

I'm not going to have this thread derailed into a discipline debate. It can be taken elsewhere, but the fact is that these people were following teachings given by the Pearls, and the Pearls are not the only Christians teaching these kind of horrendous things. I find them to be disgusting and repulsive and horribly abusive. I can't imagine what kind of parents would need to 'discipline' a child in any such manner.

 

[Psalm63]

I don't think so, Chaz, I just mentioned that at two of the churches I went to, Debi Pearl's book Created to be his Help Meet was used as part of the women's Bible study. It was then mentioned that the Pearls also have a book entitled To Train up a Child which has led to abuse in some instances. I will say that in the Created book, Mrs. Pearl does advocate allowing your husband to abuse your children and continuing to be all submissive in the hopes that your submission would bring him around. I'm rolling my eyes even now as I type this. Anyway, I'm just saying that this was a pretty natural progression of the conversation from the topic at hand.

Horse's mouth and all...

Please forgive me in advance for the crudeness, but:

God HATES divorce and there is just NO greater "joy" than you should just spread those legs for the man that raped your daughters. Hey y'all ladies out there, you want to join a church that treats you and your daughters like THIS?:

According to Debi Pearl:
“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?” Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.”
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