Women... what am I doing so wrong?

[Gwendolyn]

If your assumption is true, then the list of available women is like zero. There are a lot of attractive women out there, but that I actually connect with....so small of a number.

I don't understand what you mean. I am talking about actually connecting with someone - that is what getting to know each other first is for. Learning if you connect. For me personally, I do not want to get into a romantic relationship with someone I do not know. If a guy is willing to get to know me first, without pushing for immediate romance, then I understand that he actually cares about me as a person - not just as an object of sexual attraction.

 

[OGM]

I have expressed a desire to wait and get to know each other and build a friendship first, but they take off. That tells me that they only want to get into my pants, and don't care about who I am as a person unless they can get something out of it. That is selfish... but I suppose according to your understanding, at least they are being honest that they don't care about getting to know me first.

Actually many guys will take off if a woman says, "let's be friends first". It is a very clique way of getting rid of a guy. Even if he does wait around his feelings for you may grow while yours might not. Also he may not being trying to find someone else during his "friendship" period because he is hoping...that he will be liked in the end. If he gets rejected it will just go down harder for him.

 

[Rhye]

I simple, dislike, all of this. There is no way of winning, no way ever.

 

[OGM]

I simple, dislike, all of this. There is no way of winning, no way ever.

What do you dislike exactly? All of what? No way of winning? As in no way of finding someone?

 

[Rhye]

Okay...thank you for reading it and not quoting it.

 

[MacFall]

Actually many guys will take off if a woman says, "let's be friends first".

Then most guys are horribly immature. You can't get to know someone without being a friend to them; and if you have romantic feelings for someone you don't know you're just infatuated. And acting on infatuation is just stupid. Or possibly insane.

Even if he does wait around his feelings for you may grow while yours might not.

Welcome to reality. You have to take risks. Sometimes they pay off; usually they don't. To quote a popular movie lampooning the popular notion of "true love": "anyone who says otherwise is selling something". But as with most risks, the payoff brings greater things than would have come if you had not taken it. Genuine knowledge of another person takes time. And unless you have the impulsiveness of a child, you wouldn't go pining after someone you don't genuinely know in the first place. That, as I said before, is infatuation.

 

[OGM]

I don't understand what you mean. I am talking about actually connecting with someone - that is what getting to know each other first is for. Learning if you connect. For me personally, I do not want to get into a romantic relationship with someone I do not know.

Perhaps it misunderstanding of the word “know” that is going on. I am not talking about a complete random stranger coming up to a woman and asking her for a date out of the blue. What I am referring to is of man that a woman knows somewhat (socially) that is not a friend yet.

If a guy is willing to get to know me first, without pushing for immediate romance, then I understand that he actually cares about me as a person - not just as an object of sexual attraction.

I am talking about a guy that you know but is not a friend-pal-buddy or someone you hang out with alone on a platonic basis.

 

[OGM]

Then most guys are horribly immature. You can't get to know someone without being a friend to them; and if you have romantic feelings for someone you don't know you're just infatuated. And acting on infatuation is just stupid. Or possibly insane.

“Let’s just be friends” is perhaps the most popular rejection line used. Many of the guys that leave when they hear that line are guys that have had it used on them when a woman wanted knowing to do with him. Many guys have in fact tried to befriend a woman after hearing “let’s be friends.” Most of those guys don’t do it anymore. Besides it can be a very dangerous thing to do for several reasons.

Welcome to reality. You have to take risks. Sometimes they pay off; usually they don't. To quote a popular movie lampooning the popular notion of "true love": "anyone who says otherwise is selling something". But as with most risks, the payoff brings greater things than would have come if you had not taken it. Genuine knowledge of another person takes time. And unless you have the impulsiveness of a child, you wouldn't go pining after someone you don't genuinely know in the first place. That, as I said before, is infatuation.

Life is about assessment. So if a man asks a woman out and she says, “let’s be friends”…he then see that woman as being a friend and pursue others that he feels may actually want to go out with him. He may even become very close friends with the first woman and may even ask her for relationship advice; because he sees her as a platonic friend. This is due to the fact the he may not be sexually attracted to her anymore but may see her the same way as male friend or female relative.

 

[Gwendolyn]

I guess I am just odd, then. I've never used "let's just be friends" as a shut-down. If I know someone socially, but we are not friends, then I want to become friends before launching myself into romance. I suppose I am just a very cautious person, but I firmly believe that in order for a romance to be successful, you have to be friends in addition to the romantic part.

 

[Thunder Peel]

This thread is a perfect reminder of why modern dating and love are like the kiddie pool: dip your feet in and never go below the shallow surface to look for something more. Sad.

 

[SneakerPimp53]

I think that your point of view neglects the fact that most lasting marriages do so well because the couple are friends as well as lovers. It isn't about deception. It is about being patient and prudent.

I don't believe that friendship is ever a waste of time. I find it insulting when men only want to give me the time of day because they are sexually attracted to me. That is shallow. I have expressed a desire to wait and get to know each other and build a friendship first, but they take off. That tells me that they only want to get into my pants, and don't care about who I am as a person unless they can get something out of it. That is selfish... but I suppose according to your understanding, at least they are being honest that they don't care about getting to know me first.

Married people are not friends. I know that's a common modern cliche these days, but a marriage is not a friendship. A romantic relationship is a very narrowly defined relationship, a friendship just isn't. There are certain characteristics shared by the two, but then again there are characteristics shared with sibling relationships. It obviously doesn't mean the same thing.

A friendship that only exists because one person hopes that a romantic relationship will come out of it is not a friendship at all. It's hardly surprising that guys aren't willing to play the "friends" game, wasting their time and emotional investment, only to find out later that you've decided you aren't interested in them romantically. You seem to have this idea that dating means you need to be having sex two days later, or something. You can get to know someone perfectly well while dating them. Dating after all, typically has phases. The more you get to know a person and the mutual interest remains the more depth develops in the relationship. All that can, and does, happen when people are dating.

The "let's be friends" game is just a recipe for one person to waste time and come away from the whole thing feeling used and/or played. You can choose to view it as guys only want to get in your pants. But look at it from the other angle: how would you feel if you spent months in a "friendship" with the other person knowing full well what your feelings were, only for them to suddenly tell you they didn't return those feelings?

 

[Blank123]

strange. my parents, who have been married for over 30 years, both say that the other person is their best friend. Somehow I doubt that a stranger on the interwebs understands their relationship better than they do. And honestly I'd hate to see the marriage where both people are not best friends.

 

[Rhye]

Married people are not friends. I know that's a common modern cliche these days, but a marriage is not a friendship. A romantic relationship is a very narrowly defined relationship, a friendship just isn't. There are certain characteristics shared by the two, but then again there are characteristics shared with sibling relationships. It obviously doesn't mean the same thing.

I completely disagree with you on this. When you are married to someone he/she is not only your husband/wife....lover...but your friend. They are your best friend, someone you go to for everything. Without friendship in marriage, without the love of friendship, without the deep connection that has developed because of friendship then I see no marriage. When I am with someone I want him to be my greatest friend, and greatest of all other things....and I want him to want that from me.
When I look at my parents, they have said, time and time again...they are each others greatest friends. I want that, so much!

 

[SneakerPimp53]

strange. my parents, who have been married for over 30 years, both say that the other person is their best friend. Somehow I doubt that a stranger on the interwebs understands their relationship better than they do. And honestly I'd hate to see the marriage where both people are not best friends.

I would hope that a 30 year marriage produces something deeper than "best friends."

 

[Blank123]

I would hope that a 30 year marriage produces something deeper than "best friends."

how could you have a better or deeper friendship than to live and make a life together for 30 years and everything that goes with that?

 

[SneakerPimp53]

I completely disagree with you on this. When you are married to someone they are not only your husband/wife....lover...but your friend. They are your best friend, someone you go to for everything. Without friendship in marriage, without the love of friendship, without the deep connection that has developed because of friendship then I see no marriage. When I am with someone I want him to be my greatest friend, and greatest of all other things....and I want him to want that from me.
When I look at my parents, they have said, time and time again...they are each others greatest friends. I want that, so much!

I have friends I would kill for, or die for if need be. You know more of my situation than other people here regarding the woman in my life. That's not a friendship because it's far far deeper than a friendship. Sure, there are elements of a friend relationship there. We like to do a lot of the same things, we talk and laugh together, but at the end of it that relationship is so much deeper than just a friendship. It's a very narrowly defined relationship that involves a level of intimacy and trust that you can only have with one other person. A friendship can mean lots of different things, and there are different levels of it, and you can have lot's of friends. I'd venture to say most people have more than one friend.
I get the turn of phase is saying "my wife is my best friend." What I mean though is that a marriage, or a committed relationship, is much much deeper than a friendship. Or it should be, and the two relationships develop differently. The kind of bonding, and how that bonding takes place, are very different processes. With very different sorts of feelings and expectations going into them.

 

[Rhye]

I have friends I would kill for, or die for if need be. You know more of my situation than other people here regarding the woman in my life. That's not a friendship because it's far far deeper than a friendship. Sure, there are elements of a friend relationship there. We like to do a lot of the same things, we talk and laugh together, but at the end of it that relationship is so much deeper than just a friendship. It's a very narrowly defined relationship that involves a level of intimacy and trust that you can only have with one other person. A friendship can mean lots of different things, and there are different levels of it, and you can have lot's of friends. I'd venture to say most people have more than one friend.
I get the turn of phase is saying "my wife is my best friend." What I mean though is that a marriage, or a committed relationship, is much much deeper than a friendship. Or it should be, and the two relationships develop differently. The kind of bonding, and how that bonding takes place, are very different processes. With very different sorts of feelings and expectations going into them.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you in many, many ways. The way I would be friends with someone that I am not in a romantic relationship with is not the same as I would be with someone I am with. That kind of friendship is different, its defined differently as well. I think in many ways you are saying what I believe a relationship with friendship would be like...you just see that differently.

 

[MacFall]

“Let’s just be friends” is perhaps the most popular rejection line used.

By girls who are equally as immature as guys who think that friendship is poison to romance. Thankfully, most women outgrow it. If those you have encountered haven't, then that's just really bad luck for you.

Besides it can be a very dangerous thing to do for several reasons.

What reasons? Other than the "danger" of being emotionally vulnerable (as opposed to a callous a-hole) and having to be patient (letting romance grow naturally out of more basic - and genuine - forms of affection instead of forcing it into existence on a whim).

Life is about assessment. So if a man asks a woman out and she says, “let’s be friends”

Then neither of them, apparently, have the slightest clue how to have healthy relationships with other people. If you don't have agape and philos before you have eros, you're doing it wrong. Very, VERY wrong. Friendship (philos) is a necessary building block of romantic love. It shouldn't be avoided for the sake of convenience, and it shouldn't be treated as a garbage can for people who don't "make the cut".

 

[Edwards1984]

Actually many guys will take off if a woman says, "let's be friends first"...

They're immature then, like Macfall said. I'm currently with a girl in a "let's be friends first" relationship, and it's wonderful, to be frank. We're just getting to know each other, but the more we get to know each other, the more we see a link there. I know that can't be true for everyone, but neither is the negative true for everyone either.

 

[OGM]

I guess I am just odd, then. I've never used "let's just be friends" as a shut-down.

I am glad you didn’t it did not have a double meaning with you.

If a guy asks a woman out and she says, “let’s be friends for now.” It in essence means:

“No, I am not interested in dating you. However, we can TRY to be friends first. IF our friendship goes well I MAY decide you are worthy enough to date me. At which time you can ask me out. Or I MAY decide to stay your friend and decide I don’t want to date you after all. Or in that time I MAY find someone else. To be honest with you; I don’t know how long this friendship period will last because it is not of a preset duration. BTW while we are in the “getting to be friends” stage, no matter how long that is; I prefer you don’t ask any other women out.”

If I know someone socially, but we are not friends, then I want to become friends before launching myself into romance. I suppose I am just a very cautious person, but I firmly believe that in order for a romance to be successful, you have to be friends in addition to the romantic part.

There is nothing wrong with being cautious. When men try to be “friends first” before asking out women they are often accused of, on this website even; of being ambiguous, that they are sending mixed signals and that they are not “manning up.”

By girls who are equally as immature as guys who think that friendship is poison to romance. Thankfully, most women outgrow it. If those you have encountered haven't, then that's just really bad luck for you.

Don’t assume it is all immaturity. Many times a woman is totally caught by surprise by the guy asking her out and though she may not she him through romantic eyes...may see him as someone that can ONLY be a friend. Or perhaps she just does not want to just say “no” because she does not want to hurt his feelings. Some guys are very sensitive to rejection and become upset.

What reasons? Other than the "danger" of being emotionally vulnerable (as opposed to a callous a-hole) and having to be patient instead of forcing romance into existence rather than letting it grow naturally out of more basic (and genuine) forms of affection. If you don't have agape and philos before you have eros, you're doing it wrong. Very, VERY wrong.

Have you ever heard of the rule “no means no”? Well if you ask a woman out once and she turns you down…then you try to ask her out again...that could be very problematic. If you did this at work you could be fired and to be honest, is a Federal issue in the United States. It can be interpreted as harassment. Also many states have stalking laws. Trying to date a woman after she said she did not want to date you already is not a legally prudent thing to do. To my knowledge there is not specific time that has to elapse the time you ask her out the first time and all subsequent times.

Then neither of them, apparently, have the slightest clue how to have healthy relationships with other people.

If a man asks a woman out and he says “no” for whatever reason…I believe the man should respectfully move on and leave her alone. It is the fairest thing to do for all parties. On the other had I have had woman say something to the effect of; “sorry DNP I can’t because I am busy with work this weekend but I have next weekend off, would that work for you?” Notice she said “no” but had a qualifier. If she gave some form of maybe/no. I would not bother her by asking her out any more because it may in fact make her very uncomfortable and come across as being disrespectful on my part.

If I asked her out and she said, “DNP, perhaps we should just be friends at this point.” I would not try to force the issue and I would never bring it up again to her. I would be cool with her though and hope she finds a guy that is a better match for her than yours truly.

This is very different than being friends a woman from the beginning and then the BOTH of you developing a mutual attraction towards each other.