Women In Authority – Teaching Mixed Assemblies in Church

[Assyrian]

Gen 3:16 has a large part to to silence of women in churches while teaching is going on but even as acts 18 with husband and wife teaching apollos working as a team together like gen 2:18 and eph 5:31 come together ....

If that were the case then a man shouldn't preach without his wife either.

disagree with God's word is being out of God's will and one cannot grow when out of God's will ... 1 jn 2:14

Though it is surprising how often people following God's will with his word in their hearts are opposed by sincere religious people who think they are standing up for God's word.

 

[Strong in Him]

I respect your right to be wrong professor wrong in him.

People generally result to insults when THEY are wrong. And you don't/can't answer my questions either.

 

[hedrick]

I'm seeing some interesting approaches to 1 Tim 2:11. One of the most interesting is N T Wright's. See Women’s Service in the Church: The Biblical Basis by N.T. Wright. He maintains that "submission" is submission to the Word, not men. But in the end, even his interpretation, which makes sense in all the details, just doesn't do it for me when I read the whole passage. I just don't think it's possible to make that passage consistent with the undisputed letters of Paul, nor with sensible exegesis of Gen 3.

I understand that we'd like to convince people who regard the Pastorals as inerrant. I'm just not convinced that it's going to work. At a certain point I just have to say, sorry, but I don't feel bound by the judgements of the author of 1 Tim on this issue, even if it's an older Paul (which I doubt). There are going to be places where the way we understand Scripture affect what we do. I think this is one of them.

My one caveat is 1 Tim 3:11. If it really indicates female deacons, which it seems to, then a general prohibition of female leaders seem dubious. But if we see deacons as a service office, perhaps not.

However I don't see any reason to limit the prohibition to church office. If women can't be trusted to teach men, I don't see why I'd restrict that to not being ministers. I wouldn't think we'd want them in any role that requires making choice between truth and falsehood, certainly not as university faculty, and possibly not even Sunday School teachers. (Possibly because of the age difference, female teachers aren't in danger of being misled by their students, but they could still be misled by false opinions that they have read and heard. I'd say if they are inherently more likely to be deceived, they shouldn't be teaching any grade level where there is serious intellectual content.) But I'd argue that business and political leadership have a significant component of this as well. Voting seems like a particularly clear example of something where we require exactly the kind of discrimination that 1 Tim 2 is discussing. I think if we're going to take this passage and the reasoning on which it is based as authoritative, we need to seriously reconsider the roles we've allowed women to take in the modern world.

No, I'm not being sarcastic. But I am implying that most American Christians haven't carefully thought about the implications of 1 Tim 2:13-15. I believe conservative Christians have given up taking it seriously, replacing the intent of the passage with a very narrow, legalistic reading that applies only to a few church offices.

I see the same issue with 1 Cor 14:34-35. If you really took that passage literally, I'd expect to find the following in your order of worship Sunday morning:

Women: please note that in accordance with 1 Cor 14:34-35 you are expected not to talk with anyone during the service. If you need to consult with anyone in the pew around you, particularly your husband, please do so before or after the service. Men, of course, may make whatever noise they want.

Instead, that passage is implemented by prohibiting female ministers, ignoring the literal application completely and replacing it by something with only a tenuous relationship with the passage.

 

[intojoy]

People generally result to insults when THEY are wrong. And you don't/can't answer my questions either.

It wasn't a question strong in him, why do I have to write that? Wrong in him sounds more light hearted and its funny. No insult, you a baby or something? You are dogmatic in the extreme sir, to respond to you is to invite one sided opinions from yourself. I'm happy to agree with your right to disagree strong in him. See ya

 

[Strong in Him]

It wasn't a question strong in him, why do I have to write that? Wrong in him sounds more light hearted and its funny.

Ok, not insulting as such, just patronising and unneccessary.

No insult, you a baby or something?

No, just telling it as it is. I was on the receiving end of your comment, I have the riight to say whether or not is was funny.

You are dogmatic in the extreme sir, to respond to you is to invite one sided opinions from yourself. I'm happy to agree with your right to disagree strong in him. See ya

And it gets worse!

1 I am not "sir"; you have already called me mam once, maybe you don't read your own posts.

2 You have every right to disagree with me; I have been asking questions and made it clear that I woulkd like to understand.

3 My posts do indeed seem one sided - because you don't answer my questions. Maybe you can't defend your own position, or maybe you just think everyone should accept what you say without question. Well sorry; doesn't work like that.

See ya

Well if you're not going to answer my questions and defend your position, maybe it is best you leave the debate.

 

[intojoy]

Ok, not insulting as such, just patronising and unneccessary.

No, just telling it as it is. I was on the receiving end of your comment, I have the riight to say whether or not is was funny.

And it gets worse!

1 I am not "sir"; you have already called me mam once, maybe you don't read your own posts.

2 You have every right to disagree with me; I have been asking questions and made it clear that I woulkd like to understand.

3 My posts do indeed seem one sided - because you don't answer my questions. Maybe you can't defend your own position, or maybe you just think everyone should accept what you say without question. Well sorry; doesn't work like that.

Well if you're not going to answer my questions and defend your position, maybe it is best you leave the debate.

Thx for the kiss goodbye

 

[101c]

Greeting to all in the name of the Lord Jesus.

in response to the OP, and not having read all of the post.

Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also".
the word commend speak al lot as to her recomendation.
G4921 συνιστάω sunistao (soon-is-tah'-o) (or (strengthened) sunistano soon-is-tan'-o, or sunistemi soon-is'-tay-mee) v.
1. to set together
2. (by implication) to introduce (favorably)
3. (figuratively) to exhibit
4. (intransitively) to stand near
5. (figuratively) to constitute
[from G4862 and G2476 (including its collateral forms)]
KJV: approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with)
but the revealing word is "succourer", in verse 2. here, according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word, succourer
G4368 προστάτις prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 προστάτις prostatis), is the feminine of, proistemi G4291 προΐστημι proistemi, which is for the male in that position.
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
G4291 προΐστημι proistemi is used for those who have rule over us. example in scripture, 1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you".
so our sister Phebe is the female equivalent to male G4291 προΐστημι proistem. who preside, and have "the rule over". that is clear.

but also in Roman 16: 3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus". Priscilla, along with her husband is label as "HELPERS", or "ASSISTANT".

Helper, G4904 συνεργός sunergos (soon-er-gos') adj.
1. a co-laborer, i.e. coadjutor
[from a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041]
KJV: companion in labour, (fellow-)helper(-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow
Root(s): G4862, G2041
get a dictionary and find out what a coadjutor is, according to dictionary.com, a coadjutor
1. an assistant.
2. an assistant to a bishop or other ecclesiastic.
3. a bishop who assists another bishop, with the right of succession.
Priscilla and Aquila was in leadership positions. and our sister Phebe was already an assistance to the apostle Paul. go back to the definition of succoure. she was commended for the next position, "Bishop". she had already served faithfully as a deacon. now commended for that higher position, for she was a succourer of many, and of the apostle Paul also. now the apostle Paul is recommending the appoint of this woman for that position. remember Paul is an apostle, do he not have the right to appoint Elders, Bishops?. YES. so was this woman appointed. did she not carry the letter to the church at Rome?. there is much more to this woman, and other women as well. but here in this chapter a woman is being appointed to a leadership role right under our noses. just do the research.

"Where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"​

 

[Optimax]

Women In Authority – Teaching Mixed Assemblies in Church

When a man goes into a church to teach and is not the Pastor of that church.

He is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.

When a woman goes into a church to teach she is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.

 

[101c]

2 Optimax, greeting.
When a man goes into a church to teach and is not the Pastor of that church.
He is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.
When a woman goes into a church to teach she is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.

question, are you using pastor here, as in reference to "Christ Jesus". Y/N?.

 

[intojoy]

Greeting to all in the name of the Lord Jesus.

in response to the OP, and not having read all of the post.

Romans 16:1 " I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea: 2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also".
the word commend speak al lot as to her recomendation.
G4921 ???????? sunistao (soon-is-tah'-o) (or (strengthened) sunistano soon-is-tan'-o, or sunistemi soon-is'-tay-mee) v.
1. to set together
2. (by implication) to introduce (favorably)
3. (figuratively) to exhibit
4. (intransitively) to stand near
5. (figuratively) to constitute
[from G4862 and G2476 (including its collateral forms)]
KJV: approve, commend, consist, make, stand (with)
but the revealing word is "succourer", in verse 2. here, according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries it's the word, succourer
G4368 ????????? prostatis (pros-tat'-is) n.
1. a patroness, i.e. assistant
[feminine of a derivative of G4291]
KJV: succourer
Root(s): G4291

The KJV renders it here as succourer, Why?. this word succourer, (G4368 ????????? prostatis), is the feminine of, proistemi G4291 ????????? proistemi, which is for the male in that position.
G4291 ????????? proistemi (pro-is"'-tay-mee) v.
1. to stand before
2. (in rank) to preside
3. (by implication) to practise
[from G4253 and G2476]
KJV: maintain, be over, rule
Root(s): G4253, G2476
G4291 ????????? proistemi is used for those who have rule over us. example in scripture, 1 Thessalonians 5:12 "And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you".
so our sister Phebe is the female equivalent to male G4291 ????????? proistem. who preside, and have "the rule over". that is clear.

but also in Roman 16: 3 "Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus". Priscilla, along with her husband is label as "HELPERS", or "ASSISTANT".

Helper, G4904 ???????? sunergos (soon-er-gos') adj.
1. a co-laborer, i.e. coadjutor
[from a presumed compound of G4862 and the base of G2041]
KJV: companion in labour, (fellow-)helper(-labourer, -worker), labourer together with, workfellow
Root(s): G4862, G2041
get a dictionary and find out what a coadjutor is, according to dictionary.com, a coadjutor
1. an assistant.
2. an assistant to a bishop or other ecclesiastic.
3. a bishop who assists another bishop, with the right of succession.
Priscilla and Aquila was in leadership positions. and our sister Phebe was already an assistance to the apostle Paul. go back to the definition of succoure. she was commended for the next position, "Bishop". she had already served faithfully as a deacon. now commended for that higher position, for she was a succourer of many, and of the apostle Paul also. now the apostle Paul is recommending the appoint of this woman for that position. remember Paul is an apostle, do he not have the right to appoint Elders, Bishops?. YES. so was this woman appointed. did she not carry the letter to the church at Rome?. there is much more to this woman, and other women as well. but here in this chapter a woman is being appointed to a leadership role right under our noses. just do the research.

"Where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"

Are you a scholar or are you relying on one?

 

[intojoy]

Yea, that's what I thought. Me too, I rely on the scholars and mine say you're wrong

 

[101c]

Are you a scholar or are you relying on one?

neither, just studying the word.

 

[intojoy]

Are you a scholar or are you relying on one?

neither, just studying the word.

Well your trying to get around the word rather than studying it. Women are forbidden to teach men scripture, it is what it says, good enough for me.

 

[101c]

2 intojoy,
is this your eisegesis of the scriptures?. because what I have read in your posts, are not the exegesis of the Word. maybe some more studying on your part. break down the word, and read in context.

thanks for your response.
be blessed.

 

[intojoy]

2 intojoy,
is this your eisegesis of the scriptures?. because what I have read in your posts, are not the exegesis of the Word. maybe some more studying on your part. break down the word, and read in context.

thanks for your response.
be blessed.

Why should we? It's not like you're going to change your opinion. I can say you're wrong, that's it the end. You don't have to believe me, but as far as I'm concerned you're wrong. When I made a statement concerning women teaching men its what I read in the scripture. You don't like it? That's fine. No big loss.
Your bud,
Joy

 

[101c]

2 intojoy, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.

I asked, "maybe some more studying on your part. break down the word, and read in context". and you responded, "Why should we?". that's good to hear, "we", because that tell me that much teaching is need here. there are like minds.

then you asked, "It's not like you're going to change your opinion". I have no opinion. only the Lord Jesus opinion counts. we, you and I, our opinions are fruitless. then you ask, " I can say you're wrong, that's it the end. You don't have to believe me, but as far as I'm concerned you're wrong". it's not a matter if I'm wrong, or you're wrong, but that the word of God is RIGHT. and you're correct when you said, You don't have to believe me, nor I you. but what's important is that you and I believe the scriptures. so, lets not get off on the wrong foot with each other. this is a discussion board, where all may post their understanding. not to see who's right or wrong. but to edify each other in the Lord. a study of the word is important, such as those who was in Berea, they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. see they received the word, but they checked it out. that's all I saying. study to show yourself approved unto God, not unto you, or I. so I ask, lets reason together, and search the scripture to see if what we believe is so.

be blessed.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"​

 

[intojoy]

2 intojoy, greeting in the name of the Lord Jesus the Christ.

I asked, "maybe some more studying on your part. break down the word, and read in context". and you responded, "Why should we?". that's good to hear, "we", because that tell me that much teaching is need here. there are like minds.

then you asked, "It's not like you're going to change your opinion". I have no opinion. only the Lord Jesus opinion counts. we, you and I, our opinions are fruitless. then you ask, " I can say you're wrong, that's it the end. You don't have to believe me, but as far as I'm concerned you're wrong". it's not a matter if I'm wrong, or you're wrong, but that the word of God is RIGHT. and you're correct when you said, You don't have to believe me, nor I you. but what's important is that you and I believe the scriptures. so, lets not get off on the wrong foot with each other. this is a discussion board, where all may post their understanding. not to see who's right or wrong. but to edify each other in the Lord. a study of the word is important, such as those who was in Berea, they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. see they received the word, but they checked it out. that's all I saying. study to show yourself approved unto God, not unto you, or I. so I ask, lets reason together, and search the scripture to see if what we believe is so.

be blessed.

"where there is knowledge stay not ignorant"

Ok, I'll come back to this later.

 

[intojoy]

Ok, I'll come back to this later.

In the mean time women be quite
Just kidding

 

[Assyrian]

Well your trying to get around the word rather than studying it. Women are forbidden to teach men scripture, it is what it says, good enough for me.

And yet the bible shows us Priscilla teaching Apollos...

 

[Optimax]

2 Optimax, greeting.
When a man goes into a church to teach and is not the Pastor of that church.
He is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.
When a woman goes into a church to teach she is under the authority of the Pastor of the church.

question, are you using pastor here, as in reference to "Christ Jesus". Y/N?.

No.