Women Can't Preach

FaithGraceGirl

Wives Submit To Your Husbands
Feb 1, 2013
24
4
Virginia
✟165.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Politics
US-Libertarian
How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

(33b.) As in all the worshipping assemblies of the saints,

(34.) let the women keep silent in your worshipping assemblies; for it is not turned over to [or allowed] them to speak; on the contrary, let them go on subordinating themselves, as also the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-38 ).
 

samdja

Newbie
Feb 5, 2013
8
2
30
Singapore
✟7,638.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
I do believe that the 1st letter for Corinth is sent by Paul to rebuke the churches in the City of Corinth. It was a center of trade, and therefore, a lot of 'places for pleasure' existed there.
I myself do not know why Paul said such things in his letter, but the point is, if you look at 1 Corinthians 11:5 (you might want to read the whole paragraph to get a better view), it seems that Paul did not forbid women to speak in the congregation. There must be a problem in the way the people of Corinth conduct their worship and teaching.

However, I am not a "certified theologian", I'm just simply looking at my study bible and try to figure out the underlying assumption and context of that verse. You might want to contact a theologian or your pastor/elder for clarification and further details of the truth behind those verse. :)

Cheers.
 
Upvote 0
May 23, 2011
114
7
U.P. of Michigan
✟15,908.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree with standingtall. I have heard some wonderful women pastors, and it seems to me that in this day and age we need all the people preaching that we can get. If a woman wants to do it, and has the ability, then I don't see a problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Faith.Man
Upvote 0

BryanW92

Hey look, it's a squirrel!
May 11, 2012
3,571
757
NE Florida
✟15,351.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I do believe that the 1st letter for Corinth is sent by Paul to rebuke the churches in the City of Corinth. It was a center of trade, and therefore, a lot of 'places for pleasure' existed there.
I myself do not know why Paul said such things in his letter, but the point is, if you look at 1 Corinthians 11:5 (you might want to read the whole paragraph to get a better view), it seems that Paul did not forbid women to speak in the congregation. There must be a problem in the way the people of Corinth conduct their worship and teaching.

However, I am not a "certified theologian", I'm just simply looking at my study bible and try to figure out the underlying assumption and context of that verse. You might want to contact a theologian or your pastor/elder for clarification and further details of the truth behind those verse. :)

Cheers.

In the United Methodist Church, we have many female pastors, lay speakers, and even a few female bishops. I've heard some of them preach and they are good preachers.

But, every one that I've heard has also been far, far Left. They excuse abortion, single parenthood, and divorce. They believe in ordaining homosexuals and in gay marriage. Now, there are plenty of men who agree with them on some issues and a few even agree on all.

But, in my experience, women preach on the church accepting societal values while more men preach on society accepting Christian values. There are plenty of conservative women in the church, but they don't seem to aspire to preach as much as the liberal women who "have something to say."

Perhaps the women in Corinth were doing the same and Paul was cautioning them.

Yes, there is a lot of generalizing in this post and I apologize for that, but everything I say should be prefaced with "In my experience, I have seen..."

With all that said, I will listen to female preacher who grounds her theology in the whole bible and not on contemporary society, just as I would a male preacher.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
In the United Methodist Church, we have many female pastors, lay speakers, and even a few female bishops. I've heard some of them preach and they are good preachers.

But, every one that I've heard has also been far, far Left. They excuse abortion, single parenthood, and divorce. They believe in ordaining homosexuals and in gay marriage. Now, there are plenty of men who agree with them on some issues and a few even agree on all.

But, in my experience, women preach on the church accepting societal values while more men preach on society accepting Christian values.

The rare, conservative woman pastors I've heard are amazing as preachers, but it's perhaps not surprising that most woman preachers are of the kind you've described. After all, it's liberal denominations that chose to ordain them and they also naturally tend to identify with other groups that they feel are in the same situation of having to strive to be accepted.
 
Upvote 0

BryanW92

Hey look, it's a squirrel!
May 11, 2012
3,571
757
NE Florida
✟15,351.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The rare, conservative woman pastors I've heard are amazing as preachers, but it's perhaps not surprising that most woman preachers are of the kind you've described. After all, it's liberal denominations that chose to ordain them and they also naturally tend to identify with other groups that they feel are in the same situation of having to strive to be accepted.

I agree with that. The UMC does not make women (or men) liberal. But, it does attract them to ordination because it is very hard for a conservative to be ordained in the UMC these days. Most of the conservative pastors I know now who preach from the bible and speak of revival (versus those who preach from MSNBC and speak of reform) are nearing retirement.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 21, 2009
4,828
321
✟17,705.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The rare, conservative woman pastors I've heard are amazing as preachers, but it's perhaps not surprising that most woman preachers are of the kind you've described. After all, it's liberal denominations that chose to ordain them and they also naturally tend to identify with other groups that they feel are in the same situation of having to strive to be accepted.
The non-denominational female preachers I've heard have been good and bad. But then I could say the same thing about male preachers.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,775
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

Very good. I am new here but recently was debating this on a forum came across, and the reaction was revealing. I have done a good amount of research and have a lot of material on classic Prot. views on this issue, including on 1Cor. 14:34,35.

It is not a male domination thing that moved me to contend, but the way the Scriptures were being wrested to negate what is too plain, although what "silence" means and to what manner and degree a women signifies submission to male leadership can teach is open to some debate.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Yahu

Jezebel's bain
May 14, 2012
2,349
212
✟3,900.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

(33b.) As in all the worshipping assemblies of the saints,

(34.) let the women keep silent in your worshipping assemblies; for it is not turned over to [or allowed] them to speak; on the contrary, let them go on subordinating themselves, as also the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-38 ).

I certainly agree there are problems when women take positions of authority over men. That is not their role. When under the authority of the Holy Spirit they can present teaching. They are generally directed to teach other women.

IMO it is a directive to not allow women to develop the ways of Ashtoreth, ie what we would call a Jezebel that tries to usurp authority over men. The problem comes in when women use their motherly instincts and try to apply that to those that are not under their authority.

But a women can still develop those ways without having a position of authority. Women trying to lead and guide a husband also fall into this error. The same is true of a gossip that does so to punish another not under her authority.
 
Upvote 0

Simon_Templar

Not all who wander are lost
Jun 29, 2004
7,807
1,086
49
Visit site
✟34,722.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The exhortation of women to keep silent doesn't mean that they can't talk at all, and can't play a part in the service. Paul makes this clear in other places where he references women giving prophecies etc.

Looking at 1st Timothy 2:12 is instructive because in this passage Paul also tells women to "be quiet". However, the words involved don't mean be quiet in the sense of don't talk. They mean by quiet in the sense of be content and peaceful. Specifically in that passage Paul is saying that women should be content with their God given roles and not try to take over roles that are not given to them.

One of the problems in understanding this issue is that protestant churches have lost or rejected much of the ancient and traditional understanding of Church leadership. The episcopos (overseer/bishop), and presbyter(elder/priest) roles were based off of the Old Testament typology of the temple priesthood. Most protestants won't accept this because they don't want to think of them as priests. Its too catholic for protestant tastes ;)

Never the less, the leadership roles here were ordained roles that were endowed with divine authority to teach and to apply discipline to the body of Christ. Those roles were only given to men by God, by the very order of nature itself.

In the OT the very concept of priesthood is male and paternal. The role of priesthood belonged to the Father and to the eldest son. OT Israelite religion is actually very unique in the fact that it has no concept whatsoever of a priestess.

This is often relegated to modern prejudice to being some relic of ancient sexism and misogyny. What they always ignore in this argument is that every other culture around the Israelites had priestesses, despite being even more sexist and misogynistic than the Israelite culture.

In other words, the lack of priestesses has nothing to do with women being socially discriminated against. It has everything to do with theology and the biblical understanding of priesthood.

In the biblical view men and women were created with distinctly different roles to play in the order of creation. The starting point to understand this is realizing that humanity as a whole was created with the intent that we would be the image and likeness of God. Both men and women have a role to play in that purpose. The first thing that you should take from this is that the roles of and the relationship between man and woman are sacred. They are holy. The natural aspects of the relationship and of our gender and sex are secondary to the sacred aspects which are our true reason for being.

The role of woman in this sacred drama is not less sacred, nor less important. In some ways it could actually be argued to be more sacred. The reason that Eve was created last is because she was intended to be the pinnacle, the crown of creation.

In the creation story each time God creates something he almost always pronounces the creation to be good. The only thing in the entire creation account that God says is "not good" was Adam without Eve. Adam was ordained by God to be the King of creation, yet Eve was to be his crowning glory. Adam was established by God as the priest of creation, and Eve was to be his sacred temple. Eve was the completion of creation, because she was the completion of the image and likeness of God in Adam.

The two, together, completed the image of God, as well as foreshadowing the relationship of God with his people.

The reason that Christianity has always insisted on an all male ministerial priesthood is because Christianity fundamentally holds that there is ultimately only one Priest, namely Jesus Christ. All ministerial priests who serve in the temple act in the person of Jesus Christ. That is to say they are ordained to be his personal representatives and he is present in them when they perform their ministry. Because Jesus Christ is a man, and all priests are types of him, priesthood is by definition male. It is not that priesthood was assigned to men, or to maleness, but rather that man was created to image priesthood. Priesthood is also definitively linked in this sacred drama to the role of Fatherhood. Women attempting to take on the role of ministerial priesthood is essentially the same as women attempting to take on the role of fatherhood. It is not something that shouldn't be done... it is something that CAN'T be done. At best we can make a pretense of it.

What then of the role of women?

In the sacred drama that is our human role in the world, man was created to represent God and woman was created to represent God's beloved. That is to say, woman was created to represent God's people, his bride, his temple.

The defining point of any temple is that it is where the presence of God dwells. It is the presence of God that makes a temple a temple. In creation as well as in the later covenants with Israel, God had a physical temple on earth. A place where his presence dwelt.

So how then do we understand the role of woman as the temple to man's priesthood?

The reason that God's image in humanity was not complete with Adam alone, and without Eve, is because God's eternal and deepest identity is love and relationship. God could not be imaged by a lone solitary man. God could only be imaged in the relationship of a man and a woman who become one in the bonds of love. As a result it can truly be said that God's presence as well as his image in humanity was only fulfilled when Adam joined himself to Eve in the first marriage. Thus Eve was his temple because only in the union of love with her did he fulfill his priestly role and fully image God.

This type, or symbol, is also demonstrated in that the physical temples and tabernacles of the Old Testament were meant to foreshadow God's ultimate temple which is his people, the bride of Christ. Here again we see that Christ, the husband is the priest, and his bride is his temple. This divine mystery revealed in Jesus Christ and his Church, was foretold from the beginning of time, in the created order of Man and Woman.

Lastly, it should be noted that no true priest would ever view the temple as merely his property, or a thing to be used, or something simply meant to serve him. Both priest and temple are sacred, set apart to God. They belong together and are complimentary to each other. In a certain sense neither can said to be greater than the other, for what is a priest without a temple? and what is a temple without a priest? The temple in a certain sense exists to facilitate the priest's ministry to God. Yet in the same way the priest serves the temple because it is his ministry to tend to the temple and to protect it.
 
Upvote 0

Guitaroman

Junior Member
Mar 30, 2013
33
1
✟15,158.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
I agree with standingtall. I have heard some wonderful women pastors, and it seems to me that in this day and age we need all the people preaching that we can get. If a woman wants to do it, and has the ability, then I don't see a problem.
My mother is a elder of our church and we have like 2 female elders. This is how I look at it, when the man can't step up to preach then woman have to especially since god gives them the message the same way he gives man the message.

The reason for man speaking is because god made us the leaders of the land in general so if there are enough man that can take up the mantle the woman shouldn't have to. As the opening poster said when you disregard one scripture people feel they can do others as well and it shows because its happening now. Just because god turns a blind eye doesn't mean we should keep making him sad by doing what he says not to do. Woman preaching isn't a sin but if he doesn't prefer woman to speak then there's nothing you can do about it except take it up with god.

Either way there's nothing wrong with woman speaking because the word isn't less important no matter the vessel.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
My mother is a elder of our church and we have like 2 female elders. This is how I look at it, when the man can't step up to preach then woman have to especially since god gives them the message the same way he gives man the message.
Either he has intended for men only to be pastors or he has not. Availability or ability has nothing to do with it.

The reason for man speaking is because god made us the leaders of the land in general so if there are enough man that can take up the mantle the woman shouldn't have to.
Not really. The reason is that there are specific qualifications spelled out in scripture and they call for males only.

Either way there's nothing wrong with woman speaking
Are we considering whether women can speak or not? I thought it was whether or not they could be elders/pastors.
 
Upvote 0

If Not For Grace

Legend-but then so's Keith Richards
Feb 4, 2005
28,116
2,268
Curtis Loew's House w/Kid Rock & Hank III
Visit site
✟46,998.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The whole deal is that Paul says at the end of that same passage

"Let no man be contentious, for we have NO SUCH LAWS"
1 Corinthians 11:16

American Standard Version (ASV)

16 But if any man seemeth to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
 
Upvote 0

Guitaroman

Junior Member
Mar 30, 2013
33
1
✟15,158.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Single
Either he has intended for men only to be pastors or he has not. Availability or ability has nothing to do with it.
I didn't say pastors I I'm talking about elders, but availability does have something to do with it. If there are no man to lead you don't think god won't use woman?


Not really. The reason is that there are specific qualifications spelled out in scripture and they call for males only.
Honestly that's what I was trying to say without actually posting the scripture.


Are we considering whether women can speak or not? I thought it was whether or not they could be elders/pastors.
It still is and they can be when god calls them to be, he knows everyone's situation. I believe I did answer this by saying god will allow them to be if need be. Unless you are saying that god would just abandon the church without man.

However I could be wrong, but this is what I believe.
 
Upvote 0

MrJim

Legend 3/17/05
Mar 17, 2005
16,491
1,369
FEMA Region III
✟42,622.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Men preach; women nag (I hope my wife doesn't read this :D)

At the SBC I attend there are no women preachers; the worship leader lady however, when leading the "worship" singing time, will do sometimes have a "prayer" time which mostly turns into a talking at the congregation via "prayer" and it comes out like nagging. (Guy preachers will sometimes do this too especially at "Invitiation" times; prayer is to God but mostly they're talking at the congregation ;) )
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums