women as priests

[KisKatte]

Halo,

I want to know your opinions. Your sincere personal opinions.

God allowed divorce because of the hardened hearts of the men/husbands. Only because of that. So the law has a SENSE OF MEANING and is not for the bad but for the good. And if time change, the law is changed by God, too! And also it is written in the scripture that the letter is killing (= the written law), that instead we should be from the spirit! Yes it is written that women should shout their mouths in the church. But also it is written in the bible that also the daughters, not only the sons, will make prophecy in the future. Times are hard. Many priests for example are loyal to the aggressors if the aggressor is a man and do not allow the abused women to divorce. This is only one example. Yes a women priest can be lead out of the right path in DETAILS but in general I believe because of the abuse of power of man, wich did NOT stop in front of the church doors, we need women as priests. Also I do not believe in a too great difference between women and men. Maybe not EVERY woman should become clergy member. But some should for sure. Also only Paul the apostel, who first was chasing the christians wrote against women. Possibly at THAT time women were not capable to become clergy or even only the specific place Paul addressed his letter to. Now is another time. Another apostle writes there is no difference between men and women.

I do not believe in a perfect book, because God existed also before the bible existed and there is no perfect church neither a perfect book. We should also be capable to think logically for our own. So tell me just your since opinion. Would you like women as priests if this is a capable woman?

 

[HTacianas]

Halo,

I want to know your opinions. Your sincere personal opinions.

God allowed divorce because of the hardened hearts of the men/husbands. Only because of that. So the law has a SENSE OF MEANING and is not for the bad but for the good. And if time change, the law is changed by God, too! And also it is written in the scripture that the letter is killing (= the written law), that instead we should be from the spirit! Yes it is written that women should shout their mouths in the church. But also it is written in the bible that also the daughters, not only the sons, will make prophecy in the future. Times are hard. Many priests for example are loyal to the aggressors if the aggressor is a man and do not allow the abused women to divorce. This is only one example. Yes a women priest can be lead out of the right path in DETAILS but in general I believe because of the abuse of power of man, wich did NOT stop in front of the church doors, we need women as priests. Also I do not believe in a too great difference between women and men. Maybe not EVERY woman should become clergy member. But some should for sure. Also only Paul the apostel, who first was chasing the christians wrote against women. Possibly at THAT time women were not capable to become clergy or even only the specific place Paul addressed his letter to. Now is another time. Another apostle writes there is no difference between men and women.

I do not believe in a perfect book, because God existed also before the bible existed and there is no perfect church neither a perfect book. We should also be capable to think logically for our own. So tell me just your since opinion. Would you like women as priests if this is a capable woman?

The idea of women clergy comes not from the gospel but from the secular advancement of women's rights. The advancement of women's rights is certainly a noble goal, but the Church is not the place for it. That is not the reason the Church exists. Jesus chose only men as his apostles to advance the gospel, And while many women have played very important roles in that, women were not chosen for it. Jesus himself demonstrated a difference between men and women. He said to Mary:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

But then to Thomas:

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side.

So to a woman he said do not touch me, but then to a man touch me. There is a difference between men and women.

 

[Paidiske]

Well, I'm a woman who is a priest. So there's that.

I don't think we can make an argument for the ordination of women on social need or the like. But ultimately, it's up to God whom God chooses to call into the ministry. I believe God calls women, and the church should discern and obey that call, just as it should when God calls men.

I also see New Testament precedent, in Junia the apostle, in Phoebe the deacon, in women who hosted and presided over worship in their homes, and so on.

 

[KisKatte]

Halo Paidiske

so you do not agree with me exactly. I agree that God can call women though. Dear Priestess could you answer me how you personally assess the words of apostle Paulus who said women shut shout their mouths in church community? Because it seems obvious that apostle Paulus was not a perfect apostle.

 

[Paidiske]

Dear Priestess

Side note - and I know you wouldn't have used the term intentionally - but "priestess" used for Christian clergy is a slur. It implies that we are not priests in the same way that men are, and is suggestive of Pagan practice. In English, a woman who is a priest, is a priest.

could you answer me how you personally assess the words of apostle Paulus who said women shut shout their mouths in church community?

I take it you are referring to 1 Corinthians 14:34? There are various possible ways to understand that verse, but I'd refer you to this resource as a starting point for some reading: 1 Corinthians 14:34–35 in a Nutshell - Marg Mowczko

In general, though, given that we know that Paul commended, supported, and worked alongside women in ministry - including at least one deacon and one apostle, and women who led house churches - I simply don't see it as consistent with his words elsewhere, to see this as a universal prohibition.

Because it seems obvious that apostle Paulus was not a perfect apostle.

Probably not, although I think that's a separate question from how we understand his letters in the New Testament as inspired Scripture.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

The idea of women clergy comes not from the gospel but from the secular advancement of women's rights. .

More specifically it is an idea born out of the enlightenment and liberalism which advocated the concept of equality as the primary virtue. Hence why you don't find women priests prior to our age with its emphasis on this value.

 

[HTacianas]

More specifically it is an idea born out of the enlightenment and liberalism which advocated the concept of equality as the primary virtue. Hence why you don't find women priests prior to our age with its emphasis on this value.

Carrying that idea further, if the Church decided to ordain women clergy today, what will people say about the Church 100 years from now when society's values change? Will the Church be considered "stuck in the 20th century"?

 

[KisKatte]

I am sorry Paidiske,

did not mean talk disrespectful to you. Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Paidiske]

No, I realise you didn't know. Which is why I explained.

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes it is written that women should shout their mouths in the church.

No, Paul says "I do not permit a woman to teach .... she must be silent."
That is very far from saying that no woman can speak in church. Paul did not forbid women from worshipping.

But also it is written in the bible that also the daughters, not only the sons, will make prophecy in the future.

Not just in the church; there were female prophets in the OT.

Maybe not EVERY woman should become clergy member. But some should for sure.

Sure; both men and women have the right to do whatever God calls them to do.

So tell me just your since opinion. Would you like women as priests if this is a capable woman?

Women already are priests - though not in the Catholic church.
We have a female Minister. Neither the Methodists not URC call their clergy "priests" but the role seems to be much the same - leading, teaching and discipling God's people.
Recently the church celebrated 30 years of women's ordination.

 

[Strong in Him]

The idea of women clergy comes not from the gospel but from the secular advancement of women's rights.

I understand the first woman was ordained in the US in the late 1800s.
Women have been teaching and proclaiming the Gospel since NT times.

The advancement of women's rights is certainly a noble goal, but the Church is not the place for it.

Really?
The church, which believes that men and women were made in God's image, that God accepts all and gives gifts to all, is not supposed to model that God can call both men and women to serve him?
The church should allow, and be happy with, women being doctors, surgeons, judges, teachers, CEOs, but should tell those women to sit down and shut up when they go into a church building?

Jesus chose only men as his apostles to advance the gospel,

No, Jesus chose only men to be his 12 closest disciples. So? They were also circumcised Jews - I am guessing you would not insist men become circumcised Jews before they can be ordained.
Although he did choose a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection.

And while many women have played very important roles in that, women were not chosen for it. Jesus himself demonstrated a difference between men and women. He said to Mary:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

But then to Thomas:

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side.

So to a woman he said do not touch me, but then to a man touch me. There is a difference between men and women.

Nonsense.
Jesus told Mary not to cling onto him. Whereas he invited Thomas, who had doubted that he was alive, to touch his side, briefly.
There is certainly nothing to suggest that Jesus said "Mary can't touch me because she is a woman; Thomas may, because he is a man."

Jesus chose Mary, a woman, to be the first witness of his resurrection. He could have first appeared to his disciples - he chose not to.

 

[dzheremi]

Jesus chose Mary, a woman, to be the first witness of his resurrection. He could have first appeared to his disciples - he chose not to.

Funny you should mention that. My own Church, the Coptic (Egyptian) Orthodox Church, commemorates this event in the 17th and 18th parts of the Sunday Theotokia, where that event is retold and St. Mary Magdalene's role in it is praised as an example of her good caring for the Apostles and exemplary obedience to God in following what Jesus had explicitly told her to do ("Tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me"). So I guess it comes down to what we believe (or do not believe) that God has told everyone to do. In our tradition, that does not include women priests.

There is more than one way to read a scriptural passage, of course, and we choose the ways of our forefathers and foremothers, who likewise did not see in this event anything to substantiate women being priests, despite their many other roles throughout the history of Christianity (e.g., St. Thecla, who preached with St. Paul in Syria; St. Nino, who enlightened Georgia; Sts. Hripsime and Gayane, who spread Christianity in Armenia before the conversion of King Tiridates III by St. Gregory the Illuminator; the Desert Mothers such as Amma Sarah and Amma Syncletica; their daughters such as the saint-in-all-ways Tamav Irini, abbess of the convent of St. Philopateer Mercurius/Abu Seifein, etc., etc.).

 

[davetaff]

The idea of women clergy comes not from the gospel but from the secular advancement of women's rights. The advancement of women's rights is certainly a noble goal, but the Church is not the place for it. That is not the reason the Church exists. Jesus chose only men as his apostles to advance the gospel, And while many women have played very important roles in that, women were not chosen for it. Jesus himself demonstrated a difference between men and women. He said to Mary:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

But then to Thomas:

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side.

So to a woman he said do not touch me, but then to a man touch me. There is a difference between men and women.

Hi in Christ we are all equal

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[HTacianas]

Hi in Christ we are all equal

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

Love and Peace
Dave

1Ti 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Halo,

I want to know your opinions. Your sincere personal opinions.

God allowed divorce because of the hardened hearts of the men/husbands. Only because of that. So the law has a SENSE OF MEANING and is not for the bad but for the good. And if time change, the law is changed by God, too! And also it is written in the scripture that the letter is killing (= the written law), that instead we should be from the spirit! Yes it is written that women should shout their mouths in the church. But also it is written in the bible that also the daughters, not only the sons, will make prophecy in the future. Times are hard. Many priests for example are loyal to the aggressors if the aggressor is a man and do not allow the abused women to divorce. This is only one example. Yes a women priest can be lead out of the right path in DETAILS but in general I believe because of the abuse of power of man, wich did NOT stop in front of the church doors, we need women as priests. Also I do not believe in a too great difference between women and men. Maybe not EVERY woman should become clergy member. But some should for sure. Also only Paul the apostel, who first was chasing the christians wrote against women. Possibly at THAT time women were not capable to become clergy or even only the specific place Paul addressed his letter to. Now is another time. Another apostle writes there is no difference between men and women.

I do not believe in a perfect book, because God existed also before the bible existed and there is no perfect church neither a perfect book. We should also be capable to think logically for our own. So tell me just your since opinion. Would you like women as priests if this is a capable woman?

How about "women as deaconesses and/or prophetesses" as a first consideration before we even get to the level of priestess? It seems like there's some biblical, hermeneutical and historical work that needs to be done that has been forgone or ignored for far too long in and among the various conservative Christian churches ...

As for Paul, I keep wondering why no one will pick up the hermeneutical gauntlet I've been throwing down for the last several years here. I have yet to see ONE SINGLE PERSON engage it. .............. I guess I'll just **yawn** at the face-palming that keeps coming my way. It makes my job easier while I wait.

As for answering your question: do I want to see and hear a woman preach or speak as a priestess? Frankly, I don't want to hear anyone of either sex preach unless they're darn well qualified to do so. That's my existential angst about it.

 

[davetaff]

1Ti 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Hi seams we have a contradiction the thing is if a woman is in Christ she is not a woman she is a child of God and it seams there is no sex definition in the body of Christ so could such a person be allowed to teach I cant see why not.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[HTacianas]

Hi seams we have a contradiction the thing is if a woman is in Christ she is not a woman she is a child of God and it seams there is no sex definition in the body of Christ so could such a person be allowed to teach I cant see why not.

Love and Peace
Dave

It is a tradition held over from Judaism. Judaism never had women priests. None of the Apostolic Churches ever had women priests.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It is a tradition held over from Judaism. Judaism never had women priests.

So what?

None of the Apostolic Churches ever had women priests.

Maybe because the Church during the first few centuries was hodgepodge in its organization and we don't have many remnants from that time anyway, and we don't know all of the who, what, when, where and why of every geographical sector of life in the Mediterranean we could possibly want to know?

 

[HTacianas]

So what?


Maybe because the Church during the first few centuries was hodgepodge in its organization and we don't have many remnants from that time anyway, and we don't know all of the who, what, when, where and why of every geographical sector of life in the Mediterranean we could possibly want to know?

We most certainly do have "remnants from that time". The Apostolic Churches still exist. And there are unbroken chains of commentaries reaching from modern times back to the men who knew the Apostles.

 

[Strong in Him]

1Ti 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

So that one verse, taken out of context, overrides the fact that Paul had female co-workers, that Priscilla taught Apollos, that Deborah had been judge over all Israel, that both the OT and NT had female prophets?

As I've said, many a time, my Minister does not have authority over me - and that was true even when we had a male Minister. Maybe things are different in other countries/traditions, but it is not the Minister's job to tell us what to think/do, where to live, what job to have, who to marry, how much money to give and so on. They can't even insist that we go to church. Ministers can, and have, given me references for jobs/voluntary work - that doesn't mean I am beholden to them or that I even need to agree with them.
So in what sense does a Minister even "have authority" over someone - far less usurp, or snatch it by force as I'm told the Greek suggests?