Women and bad boys

[Gadarene]

My husband is a nice guy, and I wouldn't want him any other way. He doesn't even care who sees him carrying my purse. You see, I have physical disabilities. I use a cane on a good day, and a motor scooter on a bad day. When I'm using the cane, I have only one functional arm because the other is helping me walk. So if I'm loaded down with things to carry, he'll relieve me of those burdens, maybe even taking my purse along with everything else. That's when I say, "Wait, you don't have to carry that."

In the song "I'm Still a Guy," singer Brad Paisley makes fun of men like my husband who are willing to hold a purse for a woman. He says "love makes a man do some things he ain't proud of," and uses words like "neutered" and "feminized." Brad Paisley can jump in a lake if that's his attitude. If my husband isn't proud of what he does because he loves me, I wouldn't want to be with him. I find the "macho" act perfectly disgusting, myself. What are they trying to prove, or compensate for?

It's odd to me, because while it's still gendered in a way I'm not a fan of, the old masculine ideal of being a gentleman seems totally at odds with this macho attitude.

Pretty sure I've asked my fiancée to hold my backpack for practical reasons if I ever needed to, so....why wouldn't I hold her bag for her when she needs me to? You're not going to turn into a flamboyant homosexual the instant you touch it.

Maybe the problem is in the definition of "nice." The scenario I envision is that Mr. Thinks He's a Nice Guy is dating a woman for the first time, asks her what she likes to eat, and she thinks about it before suggesting, "Oh... maybe Italian." He answers, "Of course. Whatever you like." Forever after, he'll take her to an Italian restaurant, and nothing else, until she gets bored with it and maybe wants to try Mexican this time. "But I thought you liked Italian..." Inside he's thinking, "Women can never make up their minds," while out loud he says, "OK, then, Mexican it is, whatever makes you happy." Finally she dumps him because he's clueless, and he tells everybody, "That's the way it is. Nice guys finish last. Women all want jerks."

The Nice Guy thing - yeah, it definitely depends on who you ask. I suspect there's an element of truth to all descriptions, and that it's not entirely one definition.

There are guys who try and get sex by being friendly, when all they really want is sex. They tend to complain when this doesn't work that women don't want nice guys.

There are guys who genuinely like the girl and also want to have sex with her but think they'll scare her away if you mention that latter bit, so you overplay the friend card thinking they'll come around or plan to mention your attraction at an unspecified later date. Daft behaviour, perhaps, but not necessarily unpleasant or manipulative like the previous sort.

I put it down to either manipulative behaviour in the former case, or inexperience with both relationships and communication in the latter. That said, while the complaints are gendered, there is no reason for them to be as both genders engage in these behaviours to some degree.

The matter of inexperience with relationships and communication does apply to both genders as well. I was the formerly the second kind of nice guy, and while I realise I could have been doing things better, you wouldn't believe the number of times I heard "why can't I find a nice guy like you?!" from the girls I was after, sometimes after I'd told them I liked them!

Unless I was so oblivious I missed the boat a few times on that one, but oh well

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

It's odd to me, because while it's still gendered in a way I'm not a fan of, the old masculine ideal of being a gentleman seems totally at odds with this macho attitude.

Pretty sure I've asked my fiancée to hold my backpack for practical reasons if I ever needed to, so....why wouldn't I hold her bag for her when she needs me to? You're not going to turn into a flamboyant homosexual the instant you touch it.

LOL. Nor is good grooming the leading cause of homosexuality, also brought up in that song.

The Nice Guy thing - yeah, it definitely depends on who you ask. I suspect there's an element of truth to all descriptions, and that it's not entirely one definition.

There are guys who try and get sex by being friendly, when all they really want is sex. They tend to complain when this doesn't work that women don't want nice guys.

I for one can't count the number of times I've come off a bad relationship and had a man say something to me like, "He did WHAT to you? Wow, that's awful. He's a real jerk. Come here and let me console you. I would never do such a thing to a woman...." What's left unspoken, but happens every time, is, "....I'll do worse. When I've built up your trust in me and convinced you I'm a nice guy, I'm going to take from you anything he left behind." They're like sharks who smell the blood coming from a wound, and attack the weakened prey.

There are guys who genuinely like the girl and also want to have sex with her but think they'll scare her away if you mention that latter bit, so you overplay the friend card thinking they'll come around or plan to mention your attraction at an unspecified later date. Daft behaviour, perhaps, but not necessarily unpleasant or manipulative like the previous sort.

I put it down to either manipulative behaviour in the former case, or inexperience with both relationships and communication in the latter. That said, while the complaints are gendered, there is no reason for them to be as both genders engage in these behaviours to some degree.

That's true. My husband has met his share of the female equivalent of what I've just described.

The matter of inexperience with relationships and communication does apply to both genders as well. I was the formerly the second kind of nice guy, and while I realise I could have been doing things better, you wouldn't believe the number of times I heard "why can't I find a nice guy like you?!" from the girls I was after, sometimes after I'd told them I liked them!

Unless I was so oblivious I missed the boat a few times on that one, but oh well

Wow, that's a face-palmer. "Why can't you find a nice guy like me? Hello! You just did. I'm right here."

I missed a few nice guys in my time, but more likely I would encounter the jerk who falsely labels himself a nice guy, and then claims "women don't want nice guys" when he is rejected. Let me state this: When a man remarks, as I've heard some actually say, that a woman who ends up battered by her husband, deserves it for choosing that jerk over a nice guy like him, that is NOT being a nice guy.

I've also experienced hearing the "love means trust" speech when I've spotted red flags. I'm suspecting that I'm being cheated on and lied to, and I question it, whereupon the "nice guy" will be hurt and accuse me of not really loving him. "If you don't have trust in a relationship, I don't know what it is, but it isn't love." Then it later turns out my suspicions were right. He was cheating. I was correct not to trust him. But that's not what he's going to tell others. He's going to say I am "clingy" and "controlling" and "suspicious-minded," and that "nice guys" like him don't get a break.

 

[quatona]

Then it later turns out my suspicions were right. He was cheating. I was correct not to trust him. But that's not what he's going to tell others. He's going to say I am "clingy" and "controlling" and "suspicious-minded,"

Well, your and his story aren´t necessarily contradicting each other.
Just saying (without trying to make a point about you, personally).

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I think the "bad boy"-trope has got mostly to do with the dominant gender roles of our culture.

The feminine ideal that girls become acquainted with from earliest childhood onwards still favours passivity and a docile nature - especially when it comes to finding a prospective partner. Thus, the very gender ideal favours men who are brash, straightforward, and demanding, as they will be more likely to approach women who just passively wait for a potential partner to come to them.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Well, your and his story aren´t necessarily contradicting each other.
Just saying (without trying to make a point about you, personally).

I hear you. You're pointing out that even if a man is cheating, the woman he's cheating on can still be clingy, controlling, and suspicious-minded. This is true, it can happen that way. But in the particular scenario I'm illustrating, when he tells the story later, the man neglects to mention that he WAS cheating on her, and is trying to paint her as unfairly suspecting him of it all the time, with no evidence.

My husband experienced that in reverse. His last girlfriend, before he married me, admits now that she "sabotages" good relationships because she has emotional problems and secretly doesn't feel she is worthy of success in love. This is actually a very common problem and could be another log on the "women choose jerks over nice guys" fire. Well, here is why they broke up: She had borrowed his pickup truck, supposedly for a night out with the girls. On his way to church the next morning in his other car, he passed by a local motel and noticed his pickup parked outside one of the rooms. She hadn't said anything about going to that motel. Now, he being the registered owner of that pickup, he had the right to know what she was doing there. After all, if it involved something illegal, he might be liable for providing the transportation.

So he knocked on the door of the room. And found her there, with her previous boyfriend before him.

She instantly accused him of being suspicious and mistrusting by "spying" on her. Never mind that she had lied to him and was in fact running around on him. That was beside the point! And no, he wasn't spying on her. He just happened to be driving by on his way to somewhere he went routinely, and he rightly wanted to know what she was using his pickup truck to do.

Pickup trucks and catching your woman cheating on you--sounds like a country song, doesn't it?

 

[Gadarene]

Pickup trucks and catching your woman cheating on you--sounds like a country song, doesn't it?

I think I'd prefer that to songs involving gender role policing.

Particularly if the standard for "real man" being set is "scruffy bugger who won't even hold a bag because GAYNESS O_O".

Blech.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I think I'd prefer that to songs involving gender role policing.

Particularly if the standard for "real man" being set is "scruffy bugger who won't even hold a bag because GAYNESS O_O".

Blech.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

The women who are into the power/money won't actually use those words to describe it out of fear of revealing themselves as a gold digger...they use the word "stability" to describe it.

If you ever go on a date with a woman and she says "I'm looking for a guy with stability"....hide your platinum cards lol

In my case, "stability" means that my husband has been in the same line of work (bus driver) for almost 30 years, owns his own home, keeps his vehicles in good running order at all times, is covered by medical insurance, and has never even been threatened with having utilities cut off for nonpayment. This is as compared to the kind who is always either unemployed or bouncing from minimum-wage job to minimum-wage job, either fired for bad attitude, or quitting in a fit of temper because he doesn't like being told what to do. There is always money in the budget for beer, cigarettes, and marijuana, but healthy food, safe housing, and medical care are luxuries he can't afford.

That's actually typical of most of the men that the women in my family have tended to choose. If you consider me a "gold-digger" for wanting "a guy with stability," you may not be alone in that opinion. My husband doesn't think of me that way, but my family will tell you I "married money" and now consider myself too good for them.

 

[quatona]

I hear you. You're pointing out that even if a man is cheating, the woman he's cheating on can still be clingy, controlling, and suspicious-minded. This is true, it can happen that way.

Yes, I think that partnerships (and human relationships in general) are very complex, with the (often unaware) strenghts, weaknesses, fears etc of both feedbacking into each other, thereby creating a system that´s not in control of either of them.

But in the particular scenario I'm illustrating, when he tells the story later, the man neglects to mention that he WAS cheating on her, and is trying to paint her as unfairly suspecting him of it all the time, with no evidence.

Yes, maybe that´s the way he experienced it. Maybe he even feels that her jealousy and suspicion eventually drove him into cheating. For him, that may be the true story (as opposed to him "trying to paint" it that way).

My husband experienced that in reverse. His last girlfriend, before he married me, admits now that she "sabotages" good relationships because she has emotional problems and secretly doesn't feel she is worthy of success in love. This is actually a very common problem and could be another log on the "women choose jerks over nice guys" fire. Well, here is why they broke up: She had borrowed his pickup truck, supposedly for a night out with the girls. On his way to church the next morning in his other car, he passed by a local motel and noticed his pickup parked outside one of the rooms. She hadn't said anything about going to that motel. Now, he being the registered owner of that pickup, he had the right to know what she was doing there. After all, if it involved something illegal, he might be liable for providing the transportation. So he knocked on the door of the room. And found her there, with her previous boyfriend before him.

What I find remarkable is how such a story is told, i.e. which information is given and which is considered irrelevant. (Please don´t take that personally - it´s always that way). Here, for example, I learn about the psychological issues of one of the persons (but not of the other), nothing about the (presumably) number of years they have had a partnership, and then a short description of the "showdown" when the man suspected his wife of illegal actions and found her in bed with another man. Plus, that this incident was a reason to split up.

She instantly accused him of being suspicious and mistrusting by "spying" on her.

I´d say he was.

Never mind that she had lied to him and was in fact running around on him.

I´d say she was.

And no, he wasn't spying on her. He just happened to be driving by on his way to somewhere he went routinely, and he rightly wanted to know what she was using his pickup truck to do.

Whether he had the "right" to spy on her is yet another issue.

Pickup trucks and catching your woman cheating on you--sounds like a country song, doesn't it?

Yeah, some country songs make the problems out to be that simple.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

^One thing I have learned, and have told other people: In any relationship, nobody is ever completely innocent, and nobody is ever completely at fault. On that we certainly agree. As for my husband's role in that breakup, well, I don't think he was wrong to knock on the door of the motel room. The woman herself admits that she has diagnosed psych issues, and sabotages relationships. My husband, on the other hand, has UNdiagnosed psych issues. He figures since they don't interfere with his ability to make a living, he can manage them without help, but he will admit he has his own problems. He can, I know, be rigid and inflexible in the way he does things, and has a tendency to be a bit "my way or the wrong way."

But actually catching the cheating in the act, I'd say that's a deal breaker.

By the way, they weren't married. They were talking about it, but it hadn't come to formalizing it yet. Whether or not that makes it OK that she was with her old boyfriend is another subject, but the fact that she lied to him tells me she was hiding something. If it were me, I would tell him exactly where I'm going, who I'll be with, and what we'll be doing, and he does trust me, so I don't think he's an overly suspicious sort.

 

[quatona]

^One thing I have learned, and have told other people: In any relationship, nobody is ever completely innocent, and nobody is ever completely at fault. On that we certainly agree.

Yes, were I to believe that contemplating on (problems in) relationships by means of ascribing guilt or fault is a helpful approach, I would certainly agree with you.
However, I don´t believe that that´s the way to go. (See also my sig-line)

 

[fdsfndls]

when people say 'nice' people finish last, they usually mean repressed people.

nice people will always attract nice people.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

Every woman always told me I was nice, a gentleman, loving, understanding of a woman.. great marriage material. But then they always went for the "bad boy". But after awhile I enjoyed seeing them pick the bad boy because EVERY time they would get hurt and it just made me more confident that a woman who wants a long lasting marriage will choose me and not a bad boy.

Now? I am happily married to a woman that doesn't want a bad boy. I provide her security, comfort, love...etc. The bad boy meanwhile would provide her man nights of being drunk from partying, not be able to hold a job, likely immoral acts, cheating...etc.

 

[quatona]

Every woman always told me I was nice, a gentleman, loving, understanding of a woman.. great marriage material. But then they always went for the "bad boy". But after awhile I enjoyed seeing them pick the bad boy because EVERY time they would get hurt and it just made me more confident that a woman who wants a long lasting marriage will choose me and not a bad boy.

Now? I am happily married to a woman that doesn't want a bad boy. I provide her security, comfort, love...etc. The bad boy meanwhile would provide her man nights of being drunk from partying, not be able to hold a job, likely immoral acts, cheating...etc.

IOW you are a great guy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

when people say 'nice' people finish last, they usually mean repressed people.

nice people will always attract nice people.

And they'll all team up and finish last together!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke!)

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

And they'll all team up and finish last together!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist the joke!)

*snerk*

 

[kittycat7]

A lot of guys who think they're "nice" are really uptight, feminine, manipulative, and controlling. At least the bad boys are fun (until they start beating you).

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

A lot of guys who think they're "nice" are really uptight, feminine, manipulative, and controlling. At least the bad boys are fun (until they start beating you).

I agree with most of this, but I question: What is "feminine" behavior in a man, and why is it a turn-off? Or is that a subject for another thread?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

A lot of guys who think they're "nice" are really uptight, feminine, manipulative, and controlling. At least the bad boys are fun (until they start beating you).

I'd really like to hear your definition of "femininity". Apparently, it refers to something other than just their physiology in this context, and also carries distinctly negative connotations.

 

[quatona]

I'd really like to hear your definition of "femininity".

Maybe "uptight, manipulative, controlling" were meant to be defining traits of "femininity"?