WoF verses Non-WoF

[probinson]

Of course but ALL new testament doctrines have roots in the Old
Testament. Yes the eternal consequences are paid but continuing to live in sin will bring physical death.

No disagreement here. Sin and disobedience most certainly has consequences, but you seem to be suggesting that those consequences originate from God. That's where you and I seem to disagree.

I have 2 children. One day, my son was playing on the stairs, seeing how many stairs high he could jump from. His mother told him to stop. But he continued to play on the stairs. She told him to stop again, and he kept on playing. A third time, she told him to stop playing on the stairs, and this time she told him that she didn't want him to get hurt, and physically removed him form the stairs. And still, my son went back when she was not looking and jumped down the stairs.

Then, he went one step too high, jumped, landed in an awkward position and fractured a bone in his foot. This led to an ER visit, crutches, a walking boot and 3 months of doctor visits.

You see, the consequences of my son's actions were great, but we didn't cause them for him. In fact, as parents, my wife and I tried very hard to prevent him from getting hurt. Yet he chose to disobey us anyway, and he faced the consequences for it.

Now as any good parent would, we used that situation for good as best we could. We capitalized on the opportunity to illustrate to him the importance of obedience to your mother and father, not only because the Bible says that it's the right thing for children to do, but also because we want to protect him.

Do not be deceived; every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights, Who does not change like shifting shadows.

 

[TasManOfGod]

except pr when it comes to tattoos

 

[Simon Peter]

It could be because words actually have meanings. Crazy thought, I know.

Here's another crazy thought...some arguments have little meaning, others are profoundly important.

I believe I got drawn into one with you, that has little meaning.


peace,
Simon

 

[sk8Joyful]

oh brother,
I am being drawn back into this thread,
re those comments:
1. Yahu said: "continuing to live in sin will bring physical death."

in Hebrews 9:27 it is appointed to the children of men to die once, and after their deaths the judgment.

So are you saying that physical death, is only because of sin;
and therefore we can Avoid physically death, altogether?
---
2. Simply put said: "why do you believe Christians (His Body), are the bride of Christ?
did you miss the verse in Revelation that specifically tells us what the Bride of Christ is? And it ain"t us "

So who IS it then?

Thank you for explaining yourselves.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Here's another crazy thought...some arguments
have little meaning, others are profoundly important.

I believe I got drawn into one with you, that has little meaning.

peace,
Simon

Hi Simon
You sign your posts with the word peace;
so why are your posts continuing Devoid? of same.

The Lord inspired me just now to share with us all this:

Yes,

may we EACH rest in Heaven's Peace because we share Jesus' Love......

 

[dkbwarrior]

No she did not die but it did destroy us and our relationship by the things that occurred as a direct result. I didn't even see her again until 7 years after it occurred. She stayed in the military for the trials and working at the parole hearings as well as helped get the 1st anti-stalking laws passed in California. We lost contact after her 3rd marriage, 2nd unwanted pregnancy and her mental disability discharge. Her daughter conceived via rape helped sabotage the last effort to restore our relationship.

We had an entire coven in prison for what they did to us and they spent years in prison sending curses against all involved in getting them put there. You wouldn't believe the things we went through. Twice people were prosecuted for the things they did to us including her last commander and her military psychiatrist she was ordered to see. He lost his medical license, was dishonorably discharged and her commander was removed from command.

All of our conflict was due to outside influences working against our relationship. My own family was trying to sabotage any restoration of our relationship while the military was forcibly keeping us apart. Two of those in my family that were key to that sabotage have since died of cancer.

This is absolutely horrible. I grieve with you. And I pray for her restoration and healing, as well as yours. (Not saying you haven't healed, just knowing that such scars can last a lifetime).

Peace..

 

[dkbwarrior]

There is NOTHING in scripture that goes against the nature of the God I serve. It is exactly His nature and I don't have any problems with any of His actions.

If you don't serve the God represented in scripture, what god are you serving?

The destruction of the wicked is doing good by protecting the righteous but He gets no pleasure from that destruction.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways;

I agree that there is nothing in scripture that goes against the nature of God. But there are many things in scripture that APPEAR to go against the nature of God, which was the point that I was making.

I could give several examples but Probinson did such a good job of explainng this that I just will quote him:

No disagreement here. Sin and disobedience most certainly has consequences, but you seem to be suggesting that those consequences originate from God. That's where you and I seem to disagree.

I have 2 children. One day, my son was playing on the stairs, seeing how many stairs high he could jump from. His mother told him to stop. But he continued to play on the stairs. She told him to stop again, and he kept on playing. A third time, she told him to stop playing on the stairs, and this time she told him that she didn't want him to get hurt, and physically removed him form the stairs. And still, my son went back when she was not looking and jumped down the stairs.

Then, he went one step too high, jumped, landed in an awkward position and fractured a bone in his foot. This led to an ER visit, crutches, a walking boot and 3 months of doctor visits.

You see, the consequences of my son's actions were great, but we didn't cause them for him. In fact, as parents, my wife and I tried very hard to prevent him from getting hurt. Yet he chose to disobey us anyway, and he faced the consequences for it.

Now as any good parent would, we used that situation for good as best we could. We capitalized on the opportunity to illustrate to him the importance of obedience to your mother and father, not only because the Bible says that it's the right thing for children to do, but also because we want to protect him.

Do not be deceived; every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of lights, Who does not change like shifting shadows.

Notice that Probinson didn't break his sons leg himself, on order to teach the lesson. And that is the whole point. Neither did God break his sons leg. But the laws of gravity, mass, and inertia that God set in motion at the beginning of creation did.

And this is the point all together. If Probinson had broke his sons leg to teach him a lesson, he would be in prison right now, because we all understand that this is sin. But you are saying if God breaks you leg, it is not sin. That makes no sense at all. God isn't holy and righteous in some weird far out sense that we cannot relate to. God is holy and righteous by the same definition of holiness and righteousness that He defined for us in the scriptures. We are to be holy AS GOD IS HOLY. Not holy, in a different way that nobodyk can really define, where God can do evil and we call it good, because it is God.

Peace...

 

[Simon Peter]

Hi Simon
You sign your posts with the word peace;
so why are your posts continuing Devoid? of same.

LOL...this place is often just a battle...but the goal is peace...one day.

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Matthew 10:34-36 ESV

peace,
Simon

 

[sk8Joyful]

Hi Simon

This Matthew 10:34-36 is God Addressing us. - NOwhere
in this does God say, that we are to do the same. NOwhere.

in fact, God says repeatedly...: KEEP my commandments.
(to wit) LOVE... "LOVE me (God) with ALL your soul, ALL your mind, ALL your body. AND LOVE one another AS I love you."

LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE...
LOVE... You Simon can share... this right?

edit: Reference John 13:34-5
34“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. http://bible.cc/john/13-35.htm
35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

 

[Yahu]

Hi Simon

This Matthew 10:34-36 is God Addressing us. - NOwhere
in this does God say, that we are to do the same. NOwhere.

in fact, God says repeatedly...: KEEP my commandments.
(to wit) LOVE... "LOVE me (God) with ALL your soul, ALL your mind, ALL your body. AND LOVE one another AS I love you."

LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE...
LOVE... You Simon can share... this right?

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Yes,
and I added the John 13:34-5 scripture I was reminding us all of, just now.

Would you please answer my 2 questions I asked here: #364

 

[Yahu]

This is absolutely horrible. I grieve with you. And I pray for her restoration and healing, as well as yours. (Not saying you haven't healed, just knowing that such scars can last a lifetime).

Peace..

That sabotage was rooted in witchcraft and even when Christians follow the influence of the enemy to harm others, it can bring about their own death.

Fortunately my father did repent on his death bed. He actually thought he was helping me by keeping us apart.

 

[Yahu]

oh brother,
I am being drawn back into this thread,
re those comments:
1. Yahu said: "continuing to live in sin will bring physical death."

in Hebrews 9:27 it is appointed to the children of men to die once, and after their deaths the judgment.

So are you saying that physical death, is only because of sin;
and therefore we can Avoid physically death, altogether?
---
2. Simply put said: "why do you believe Christians (His Body), are the bride of Christ?
did you miss the verse in Revelation that specifically tells us what the Bride of Christ is? And it ain"t us "

So who IS it then?

Thank you for explaining yourselves.

How can you avoid physical death? We all have sinned and fall short therefore we all die. Granted the rapture is a special case so I'm not sure about that.

Now both Enoch and Elijah did avoid physical death but I believe they will be returning as the 2 witnesses in Revelation so they can die their physical death.

I already answered #2 in another post.

 

[sk8Joyful]

How can you avoid physical death?

We all have sinned and fall short, therefore we all die.

No, to your statement.

as I already posted previously, AFTER we are saved,
as God/Jesus said, HE calls us sinners, NO MORE. -
in fact in John 15:13-15
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business.
Instead, I have called you friends, for
everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. God calls us "My friends"

It's not most christians pet-doctrine, but it IS God's words.

But yet, the above scripture was not the question I asked, about physical? death.

Now both Enoch and Elijah did avoid physical death
but I believe they will be returning as the 2 witnesses in Revelation so they can die their physical death.

I already answered #2 in another post.

Great, as least you coulda given me the Post-# as I did with you.

I matter too, you know

 

[Yahu]

No disagreement here. Sin and disobedience most certainly has consequences, but you seem to be suggesting that those consequences originate from God. That's where you and I seem to disagree.

Well the law originates from Yah. The consequences for disobedience are given by Yah. So is carrying out those consequences His action? Doesn't He operate through other individuals even if that individual is a spiritual force of the enemy realm obeying those consequences?

Those instructions are for our protection. The consequences for violation are for our instruction for good as well. What good is a law without penalty for violation? Isn't it GOOD to keep murders in jail for the protection of society?

I think the disagreement is over what Yah considers good. Is it good for a false teacher to die before leading others into error? Was it good that so many were killed in the flood?

Now if you look at it from His perspective, and He allowed all the Nephilim to live what would be the consequences later? Would the planet be lifeless now? So was the flood required for good? We don't know future consequences like He does. His plan is good but we are not qualified to judge individual actions without greater knowledge.

It is just a matter of perspective. Is it good that He kills anyone? What if that someone was Hitler or the anti-christ or the false prophet? 'Good' is relative to your perspective.

 

[Yahu]

No, to your statement.

as I already posted previously, AFTER we are saved,
as God/Jesus said, HE calls us sinners, NO MORE. -
in fact in John 15:13-15
13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business.
Instead, I have called you friends, for
everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. God calls us "My friends"

I don't understand the relevance. We still violate his law. Violation of the law is sin. We all still sin. We all die a physical death but we don't all die the 2nd death.

Whether He calls us 'my friends' or he calls us 'heirs' or 'his body' we are still trapped in this flesh that dies.

To think that because we have salvation we are not capable of sin, that is ridiculous. The curse of the 2nd death, spiritual death has been paid.

Bride at #358.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I don't understand the relevance.

We still violate his law. Violation of the law is sin. We all still sin.
We all die a physical death but we don't all die the 2nd death.

Whether He calls us 'my friends' or he calls us 'heirs' or 'his body' we are still trapped in this flesh that dies.

To think that because we have salvation we are not capable of sin, that is ridiculous.
The curse of the 2nd death, spiritual death has been paid.

You can call me ridiculous and anything else you learned in the military.
Whatever flips your pancake.

(Because those laws were made for sinners), God Fulfilled those laws, with HIS LOVE...
and living His love we are His "friends". I for one will stay God's "friend".

I as an eternally Beloved child-of-God I TRUST Jesus.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]1 Cor.8:1-3 "Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies.
If anyone supposes that he knows anything,
he has not yet known as he ought to know; but if anyone loves God, he is known by God."[/FONT]

 

[Simon Peter]

Hi Simon

This Matthew 10:34-36 is God Addressing us. - NOwhere
in this does God say, that we are to do the same. NOwhere.

in fact, God says repeatedly...: KEEP my commandments.
(to wit) LOVE... "LOVE me (God) with ALL your soul, ALL your mind, ALL your body. AND LOVE one another AS I love you."

LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE... LOVE...
LOVE... You Simon can share... this right?


edit: Reference John 13:34-5
34“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

sk8Joyful,

Years ago, I found I was constantly harassed on this forum by WoF. Eventually I requested the non-WoF forum so people like me had somewhere to go where WoF could not go (just as WoF had their own forum).
But WoF just came right into our forum and continued the harassment. I tried to defend the forum at first and reported a few people. But I was swimming against the tide and gave up.

So for me CF became mostly just a place for debate.
If you bump into me in other areas of my life you may not recognise me.

I post on plenty of other websites and never mention WoF.

But here, it is often a battle over the truth. And the truth is a part of love. Plenty of times wars have had to be fought, with the goal of peace.

peace,
Simon

 

[Yahu]

You can call me ridiculous and anything else you learned in the military.
Whatever flips your pancake.

I wasn't calling you ridiculous, I was calling the doctrine that we can't sin because we are saved as ridiculous.

Paul asked 'should we sin that grace may abound?' The answer of course not. Paul KNEW we still sin but we are not to give license to sin and live in the desires of the flesh just because we have forgiveness. That's like a Catholic that lives like hell all week because they know they can say 3 hail Marrys at confession and get away with it.

 

[Yahu]

I have 2 children. One day, my son was playing on the stairs, seeing how many stairs high he could jump from. His mother told him to stop. But he continued to play on the stairs. She told him to stop again, and he kept on playing. A third time, she told him to stop playing on the stairs, and this time she told him that she didn't want him to get hurt, and physically removed him form the stairs. And still, my son went back when she was not looking and jumped down the stairs.

IMO this is an example of poor parenting. Once a child is told to stop, the next violation should have consequences. Your wife is accountable for the major injury for not punishing him the 1st or 2nd time he disobeyed.

That isn't love, it is stupidity IMO and is why your son took greater injury then a simple punishment. She is training your son not to honor her or that their are no consequences for disobedience.

She paid for her error by having your son take an even greater hurt. You think that is a loving parent? That is sad. No wonder you have a false understanding of Yah's love.