FaithPrevails
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Historically on the board, there are women who will agree with what you are outlining here if you are saying that you are "subject to", but will vehemently resist it if you use the word submit. Submit seems to be a trigger word.
So, there really isn't much difference between what you or I would say and what they would say - other than semantics, IMO.
The difference though, and it's a very significant one, is that "subject to" describes a state of being whereas submit is a command. Does it make sense that in one verse, to wives, God would be talking in terms of a state of being, something that simply is, but in the next verse to men, be making a command or instruction? Doesn't make sense to me.
Couldn't the two go hand in hand though? First there is the state of being, then there is instruction to how that is carried out. Just musing, feel free to tweak my theory.
For me, the fact that she doesn't submit is a form of love as well.
But if we read in the scriptures that we are instructed to have marriages in which the husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her, where the honors the wife as the weaker vessel--marriages in which wives reverence their husbands and submit to them in every thing--shouldn't we seek to change our marriages to fit this to please God?
Apparently, from Paul's writings, marriage is a picture of Christ and the church. If we don't have the characteristics the Bible tells us to have, we may miss out on something God is trying to teach us through marriage. Our lives may not be the witnesses they should be. We may miss out on blessings the Lord has for us for not pursuing Him in this area. This is an area where we get to participate with Christ in a deep mystery.
I am not all that comfortable with the idea of people submitting to me. That was probably more the case when I was younger that it is now that I have children. If it is the Lord's will that your children (if you have any) submit to you, you need to help them learn to do so for their own good, and yours. If not, they can get into a lot of trouble. It is more obvious with children than with the husband and wife relationship.
I believe the US has a big problem in its culture. Some Christians blame it all on feminism and think of it as women having the wrong attitude. But there is also a problem with the men. When women do not submit to their husbands, a lot of time they take over certain responsibilities for leadership and care of the household that the men back away from. We have a culture where many women have a problem with the idea of submitting to their husbands. But the men have the same philosophy and back off from being the protector of the family and decision makers they are supposed to.
Really? So, don't be afraid of abuse? Fear is appropriate where someone acts in an abusive manner. It's normal. It's a get out of here fast response.I know abuse is out there, and it is unfortunate. But the Word says not to be afraid. Sarah followed her husband to a new land, I'm sure it was scary and at times uncomfortable but she trusted that her husband heard correctly from the Lord. And the times when Abraham submitted to her? Well...it didn't work out too well. Fear is unhealthy, fear is not of God. But perfect love drives out fear. God's perfect love and the love between a godly man and woman should drive out fears concerning the "what-ifs" of life.
Really? So, don't be afraid of abuse? Fear is appropriate where someone acts in an abusive manner. It's normal. It's a get out of here fast response.
How do you go about "changing a marriage"? It's not possible for either husband or wife to just entirely change their marriage. It takes two - husband and wife. And if one is unwilling, it is not going to happen.But if we read in the scriptures that we are instructed to have marriages in which the husband loves his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself for her, where the honors the wife as the weaker vessel--marriages in which wives reverence their husbands and submit to them in every thing--shouldn't we seek to change our marriages to fit this to please God?
People are to have all the Biblical "characteristics"? I don't believe that's even possible.Apparently, from Paul's writings, marriage is a picture of Christ and the church. If we don't have the characteristics the Bible tells us to have, we may miss out on something God is trying to teach us through marriage. Our lives may not be the witnesses they should be. We may miss out on blessings the Lord has for us for not pursuing Him in this area. This is an area where we get to participate with Christ in a deep mystery.
A wife is not a child. A wife is an adult, and should not be compared to a child.I am not all that comfortable with the idea of people submitting to me. That was probably more the case when I was younger that it is now that I have children. If it is the Lord's will that your children (if you have any) submit to you, you need to help them learn to do so for their own good, and yours. If not, they can get into a lot of trouble. It is more obvious with children than with the husband and wife relationship.
There are worse problems with the US other than culture, and far worse problems within culture than submission. It's not even on the radar for probably 90% of the population.I believe the US has a big problem in its culture. Some Christians blame it all on feminism and think of it as women having the wrong attitude. But there is also a problem with the men. When women do not submit to their husbands, a lot of time they take over certain responsibilities for leadership and care of the household that the men back away from. We have a culture where many women have a problem with the idea of submitting to their husbands. But the men have the same philosophy and back off from being the protector of the family and decision makers they are supposed to.
Who is enraged?There has to be a reason something within us becomes enraged at the idea or even mere mention of the word 'submit'. I'd be willing to say the reason is another touchy word - 'rebellion'. They hate the idea of submitting, but we're all called to submit at some level. Children are called to obey parents, wives to submit to husbands, husbands submit to God and are greatly responsible for their families, students submit to/learn from teachers, citizens submit to government and laws, subjects obey and serve the king, laymen respect and learn from apostles, pastors, prophets, and don't forget the big one - we're all supposed to submit to Christ.
Well, if you use the Greek word hupotasso, submit to/subject to are interchangeable.
Great. But I never said it should turn anyone against submission (although I can see why it would), I just said that there is reason to fear when a person is being abused. Nobody should stick around for that.I, personally, could not agree more with your statement here.
But, having been abused, I did not then turn that into meaning that submission - in true Biblical application sense - is the problem. The problem was the person abusing what submission is supposed to mean. So, I was able to enter into this marriage and practice submission and finally get to see what it plays out like in the Biblical sense of the word.
Great. But I never said it should turn anyone against submission (although I can see why it would), I just said that there is reason to fear when a person is being abused. Nobody should stick around for that.
"touchy ouchy"?Do not speak for others - even if you know their stance on a particular topic. If their post is quoted and addressed, let them speak for themselves. If the comment quoting their post is quoted and responded to, speak only from your own POV (rather than saying, what *I* think "insert username here" is saying...).
That's not what I got and I think we're supposed to let the other poster clarify for themselves, especially with a comment like "abuse .. is unfortunate." It's a bit more than that.
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