Wives submitting to Husbands-- how?

[JaneFW]

IMO....."submitting to one another" simply means giving up our selfish and envious nature that takes from someone else in order to get our own way. It's BOTH spouses having the mindset of "not my will, but YOUR will be done, LORD."

That's a great example, MK, and very true. That's how it should be, imo.

 

[FaithPrevails]

That's a great example, MK, and very true. That's how it should be, imo.

That's how it is in a submission/headship relationship.

 

[JRSut1000]

SO I guess the question could be, what makes mutual submission different than headship submission? Maybe this needs clarified.

 

[mkgal1]

I hate to sound snarky.....but, if the outcome is the same.....the "path" to get there basically the same....then why the desire to name it differently? IOW....why has there been this repeated divide of "the ones that take this passage seriously"....or "the ones that want to follow this Scripture"....and the "ones that don't wish to obey this Scripture"? Aren't we ALL following what we believe God is instructing us to do by His word (and what's best for our marriages)?

 

[mkgal1]

SO I guess the question could be, what makes mutual submission different than headship submission? Maybe this needs clarified.

You posted at the same time I did. I would like this answered by others as well, please.

My answer would be that the way some interpret these words (I guess what you are calling *headship submission*), it does allow room for selfishness and envy to exist.

With mutual agreement/submission being the guiding principle....where neither spouse feels as if they *lost* anything, but only gained.....IMO...that guards against selfishness. There is no room for it to exist.

FTR, though....I still *believe* in "headship".....as the Bible *does* say, "man is head of the woman".....I am just of the opinion that "head" means "life source".

 

[chaz345]

I hate to sound snarky.....but, if the outcome is the same.....the "path" to get there basically the same....the why the desire to name it differently? IOW....why has there been this repeated divide of "the ones that take this passage seriously"....or "the ones that want to follow this Scripture"....and the "ones that don't wish to obey this Scripture"? Aren't we ALL following what we believe God is instructing us to do by His word (and what's best for our marriages)?

It's different because our relationship with other believers is different than the relationship with our spouse and there are distinct and different instructions given for the two different relationships. If "submit to one another" applied with marriage the same way that it applies to relationships between other believers, then why does the second, separate and different command to wives even exist? Same with love. Love one another, said to and applied to all believers is different than husbands love you wives as Christ loved the church, isn't it? I mean if submit is going to apply within marriage the same way it applies between all believers, then love would too, right? And somehow I highly doubt that you'd be at all comfortable with your husband loving another female believer in the same way he loves you. Marriage is different that the relationship between any two other believers.

 

[JRSut1000]

Chaz, I'd also like to add that love is definitely seen in different ways. Submission to the husband is a form of love while protection and treating his wife tenderly is another form of love. Both are important!

There is always room for selfishness, God knew that His instructions were to an imperfect people both in the OT and in the NT too. That's why he went through the trouble to go into some detail on instructions concerning relationships whether it's about marriage, lending/borrowing, children, the elderly, etc.

 

[mkgal1]

It's been repeated quite a few times already, Chaz...that *some* of us don't believe that verse 22 (is that the right one?) says, "wives...*submit* to your own husbands"....that, instead....the words are, "wives are *subject* to your own husbands". It's a state of being.....not a command. That's the difference between what you believe and what I believe (in reference to those particular words, anyway).

 

[JRSut1000]

Okay, so if we want to use the word 'subject to', I still ends up being that wives are subject to their husbands. I agree that it's a state of being. But just like being a Christian is a state of being, it comes with responsibilities.

 

[Boidae]

Chaz, I'd also like to add that love is definitely seen in different ways. Submission to the husband is a form of love while protection and treating his wife tenderly is another form of love. Both are important!

There is always room for selfishness, God knew that His instructions were to an imperfect people both in the OT and in the NT too. That's why he went through the trouble to go into some detail on instructions concerning relationships whether it's about marriage, lending/borrowing, children, the elderly, etc.

For me, the fact that she doesn't submit is a form of love as well.

 

[JaneFW]

That's how it is in a submission/headship relationship.

That's my problem with this theory. The way that some of these marriages work out sound identical to mine so far as give and take, and working things out, so why is one side supposedly submissive and the other is not. It seems like paying lip service, like "I am a submissive wife, but I don't need to submit" or the men saying "I want a submissive wife, but I don't ask her to submit." Simply doesn't make sense to me.

Grr, I'm putting it badly. Chaz has said that he prefers to have a submissive model, but he has never had to put on the headship role or asked her to submit. In that case, why the need for it? Oh, just in case one day there is a decision to be made that they don't agree on?

Like I've said before, whoever has the better knowledge and experience "wins". That's not necessarily the man. God gave us both brains for a reason.

 

[chaz345]

Chaz, I'd also like to add that love is definitely seen in different ways. Submission to the husband is a form of love while protection and treating his wife tenderly is another form of love. Both are important!

Yes, and obviously both are different between husband and wife than between two unmarried believers.

 

[chaz345]

It's been repeated quite a few times already, Chaz...that *some* of us don't believe that verse 22 (is that the right one?) says, "wives...*submit* to your own husbands"....that, instead....the words are, "wives are *subject* to your own husbands". It's a state of being.....not a command. That's the difference between what you believe and what I believe (in reference to those particular words, anyway).

I disagree with the entire subject to reasoning because the person who came to that conclusion says that it means that they are subject to the consequenses of their husbands big huge sinful mistakes which is a virtual certainty. IOW the line of reasoning is male inferiority/female superiority dressed up in scholarly sounding terms.

Besides that, it makes no sense for God to, in one case be making a statement of fact, that women are subject to, and in the other, in an adjacent verse, be making a command to men to love as Christ did.

 

[FaithPrevails]

Okay, so if we want to use the word 'subject to', I still ends up being that wives are subject to their husbands. I agree that it's a state of being. But just like being a Christian is a state of being, it comes with responsibilities.

Historically on the board, there are women who will agree with what you are outlining here if you are saying that you are "subject to", but will vehemently resist it if you use the word submit. Submit seems to be a trigger word.

So, there really isn't much difference between what you or I would say and what they would say - other than semantics, IMO.

 

[JRSut1000]

There has to be a reason something within us becomes enraged at the idea or even mere mention of the word 'submit'. I'd be willing to say the reason is another touchy word - 'rebellion'. They hate the idea of submitting, but we're all called to submit at some level. Children are called to obey parents, wives to submit to husbands, husbands submit to God and are greatly responsible for their families, students submit to/learn from teachers, citizens submit to government and laws, subjects obey and serve the king, laymen respect and learn from apostles, pastors, prophets, and don't forget the big one - we're all supposed to submit to Christ.

 

[FaithPrevails]

That's my problem with this theory. The way that some of these marriages work out sound identical to mine so far as give and take, and working things out, so why is one side supposedly submissive and the other is not. It seems like paying lip service, like "I am a submissive wife, but I don't need to submit" or the men saying "I want a submissive wife, but I don't ask her to submit." Simply doesn't make sense to me.

Grr, I'm putting it badly. Chaz has said that he prefers to have a submissive model, but he has never had to put on the headship role or asked her to submit. In that case, why the need for it? Oh, just in case one day there is a decision to be made that they don't agree on?

Like I've said before, whoever has the better knowledge and experience "wins". That's not necessarily the man. God gave us both brains for a reason.

I can't answer you with regards to the bolded statement, as my husband does as me to submit and I ask him to lead.

It is mutually submissive in the sense that I am submitting by entrusting my husband to lead our family according to what is in everyone's best interest and what makes the most logical sense. In turn, he is submitting himself to me by considering my opinions and concerns/feelings, etc. and using them to weigh the decision that needs to be made, rather than just pulling rank on me.

I don't know if there is a way to describe it adequately unless a person has experienced abusive submission/headship and Biblical submission/headship.

Headship doesn't overrule or override the wife, unless the husband prayerfully and earnestly believes his wife is responding in sin. Likewise, a wife can rebel against the decision (while still being submissive) if she believes that her husband is making the decision in sin.

 

[JRSut1000]

I view my husband with eyes of respect and awe. And he views me tenderly as the weaker (not inferior) vessel. The motivations are slightly different. I desire to serve my husband and he desires to protect and provide. Like we've established before, the way of loving is different.

 

[FaithPrevails]

There has to be a reason something within us becomes enraged at the idea or even mere mention of the word 'submit'. I'd be willing to say the reason is another touchy word - 'rebellion'. They hate the idea of submitting, but we're all called to submit at some level. Children are called to obey parents, wives to submit to husbands, husbands submit to God and are greatly responsible for their families, students submit to/learn from teachers, citizens submit to government and laws, subjects obey and serve the king, laymen respect and learn from apostles, pastors, prophets, and don't forget the big one - we're all supposed to submit to Christ.

I believe it has to do with the incidents that people have both heard about or experienced first hand where submissiveness/headship was abused. I think it also has to do with a fear of losing the ability to think/do for oneself. I have not lost one bit of my independence or ability to make critical/logical decisions.

 

[FaithPrevails]

I view my husband with eyes of respect and awe. And he views me tenderly as the weaker (not inferior) vessel. The motivations are slightly different. I desire to serve my husband and he desires to protect and provide. Like we've established before, the way of loving is different.

This is a good way of stating it.

 

[JRSut1000]

I know abuse is out there, and it is unfortunate. But the Word says not to be afraid. Sarah followed her husband to a new land, I'm sure it was scary and at times uncomfortable but she trusted that her husband heard correctly from the Lord. And the times when Abraham submitted to her? Well...it didn't work out too well. Fear is unhealthy, fear is not of God. But perfect love drives out fear. God's perfect love and the love between a godly man and woman should drive out fears concerning the "what-ifs" of life.