With the blood

[doubtingmerle]

OK, so its not the blood that counts? The important thing is that Jesus suffered?

How can God not forgive us until he sees his son suffer, and then, after he sees his son suffer, say that now he can forgive us? One would think that would make it harder to forgive, not easier.

 

[mark kennedy]

If someone else is reckoned with my sin, and I am reckoned with his righteousness, isn't that, by definition, an accounting error? Isn't that, by definition, unjust?

But OK, so God reckons us as good. Great! Why does that require blood?

The life is in the blood and the penalty for sin is death. The debt has to be paid, then the inheritance of the redeemed can be received. All the bookkeeper cares about is settling the debt, once the debt is cleared then the positive balance can be added to the account.

 

[mark kennedy]

How can God not forgive us until he sees his son suffer, and then, after he sees his son suffer, say that now he can forgive us? One would think that would make it harder to forgive, not easier.

I don't know if your making a point here or not, are you aware you just responded to your own post?

 

[Tree of Life]

What word are you thinking of here TOL, there are a couple the fit the bill you are describing? Is it the one of Atonement, imputed? Just curious really, I've been into a study on this for a little while now.

I hold to Penal Substitutionary Atonement which coheres very well with Double Imputation.

 

[Tree of Life]

OK, so its not the blood that counts? The important thing is that Jesus suffered?

"Blood" is a synecdoche for all of Jesus' suffering and ultimately his death.

How can God not forgive us until he sees his son suffer, and then, after he sees his son suffer, say that now he can forgive us? One would think that would make it harder to forgive, not easier.

God is a just judge. The penalty of covenant unfaithfulness is death. Humans have been unfaithful to the covenant and are under the curse of death. God took on humanity in order to fulfill human responsibilities to the covenant (obedience) and also to suffer as a human the curses of the covenant as a representative for all of those who would be "in Christ".

So in the same way that Adam's sin is imputed to all of those who are "in Adam", Jesus' obedience and his suffering are imputed to all of those who are "in Christ". The suffering and resurrection of Christ is like a receipt of payment for those who are liable to the covenant curse. Because we have Christ as our representative, we have suffered for our sins and also fulfilled God's requirements of perfect obedience. We are, in Christ, perfectly righteous and under no legal liability in God's eyes.

So we are forgiven in the sense that we don't have to pay the penalty. Another pays the penalty for us. This means that God gets to forgive sinners but also maintain his justice in punishing all sin.

 

[mark kennedy]

I hold to Penal Substitutionary Atonement which coheres very well with Double Imputation.

That's what I thought, it's been developed over the centuries, just wanted to clarify.

 

[Tree of Life]

That's what I thought, it's been developed over the centuries, just wanted to clarify.

Yes PSA and DI are probably the most developed theories of the atonement. And I believe they are the most accurate.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If someone else is reckoned with my sin, and I am reckoned with his righteousness, isn't that, by definition, an accounting error? Isn't that, by definition, unjust?
But OK, so God reckons us as good. Great! Why does that require blood?

How can God not forgive us until he sees his son suffer, and then, after he sees his son suffer, say that now he can forgive us? One would think that would make it harder to forgive, not easier.

There's NO REASON for YAHWEH to forgive you. Seeing His Son Suffer for your sin and guilt and shame is still NO REASON for YAHWEH to forgive you. Death IS the penalty for sin. For any sin. Death IS deserved.

 

[mark kennedy]

Yes PSA and DI are probably the most developed theories of the atonement. And I believe they are the most accurate.

Red and I have been working on an imputation thread, the subject of atonement always comes up. Our sin is imputed to Christ and God's righteousness is imputed to us as the result. I guess you can call it double imputed but that's just semantics, one makes no sense without the other.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Revelation 5:9 says:

And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
​

What does that even mean? How did Jesus purchase men unto God with blood?

There are a number of "theories of atonement" in Christianity, and I don't know if this is the thread to necessarily get into all of them. But basic here is that Jesus, in joining with our suffering and death has released us from sin and death and reconciled us to God; the word "atonement" itself was coined by William Tyndale (16th century) as a combination of at-one-ment, or the state or condition of being at one with to translate a somewhat difficult to translate word/concept in the New Testament.

The idea here does not necessarily require that a payment be made to someone. However, if we are going to talk Atonement Theories, then an important one from early Christianity is Ransom Theory:

Ransom Theory, the most common view of the ancient Christian Fathers (along with Recapitulation Theory) states that humanity is held in bondage to the devil and the devil exercises his dominion over the world through death; Christ's death is a ransom payment made to the devil which releases human beings from the dominion of the devil, from the dominion of sin, death, and hell. Ransom Theory goes on to state that in this ransom payment the devil is, in a way, tricked; and the payment received (the crucified Jesus) is truly the devil's downfall. Christ's descent into Hades (the place of death) and resurrection means the overthrow of Hades, the defeat of the devil, and the ruination of death and sin.

So going by Ransom Theory, if there is something/someone that the "payment" is being made, it is as a ransom payment to the devil for the redemption and release of captives (us), and subsequently the total collapse and destruction of the devil's power and kingdom.

Understandably some are uncomfortable with the idea of God acting as a trickster or the idea that God would ever seemingly capitulate to the evil demands of the devil; but the basic idea here: That Christ's suffering and death has released the world from bondage and slavery to sin, death, hell, and the devil and to come into the freedom and peace of God is very much a centrally Christian idea regardless of Atonement Theory.

The point isn't that Jesus' blood is itself some kind of cosmic currency, but rather that blood signifies the pouring out of life--Jesus offering Himself and His life for the purpose of freeing, releasing, rescuing the world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tree of Life]

There are a number of "theories of atonement" in Christianity, and I don't know if this is the thread to necessarily get into all of them. But basic here is that Jesus, in joining with our suffering and death has released us from sin and death and reconciled us to God; the word "atonement" itself was coined by William Tyndale (16th century) as a combination of at-one-ment, or the state or condition of being at one with to translate a somewhat difficult to translate word/concept in the New Testament.

The idea here does not necessarily require that a payment be made to someone. However, if we are going to talk Atonement Theories, then an important one from early Christianity is Ransom Theory:

Ransom Theory, the most common view of the ancient Christian Fathers (along with Recapitulation Theory) states that humanity is held in bondage to the devil and the devil exercises his dominion over the world through death; Christ's death is a ransom payment made to the devil which releases human beings from the dominion of the devil, from the dominion of sin, death, and hell. Ransom Theory goes on to state that in this ransom payment the devil is, in a way, tricked; and the payment received (the crucified Jesus) is truly the devil's downfall. Christ's descent into Hades (the place of death) and resurrection means the overthrow of Hades, the defeat of the devil, and the ruination of death and sin.

So going by Ransom Theory, if there is something/someone that the "payment" is being made, it is as a ransom payment to the devil for the redemption and release of captives (us), and subsequently the total collapse and destruction of the devil's power and kingdom.

Understandably some are uncomfortable with the idea of God acting as a trickster or the idea that God would ever seemingly capitulate to the evil demands of the devil; but the basic idea here: That Christ's suffering and death has released the world from bondage and slavery to sin, death, hell, and the devil and to come into the freedom and peace of God is very much a centrally Christian idea regardless of Atonement Theory.

The point isn't that Jesus' blood is itself some kind of cosmic currency, but rather that blood signifies the pouring out of life--Jesus offering Himself and His life for the purpose of freeing, releasing, rescuing the world.

-CryptoLutheran

You sound less and less like Luther with every post!

 

[doubtingmerle]

The life is in the blood and the penalty for sin is death. The debt has to be paid, then the inheritance of the redeemed can be received. All the bookkeeper cares about is settling the debt, once the debt is cleared then the positive balance can be added to the account.

And that debt can be paid with, uh, blood?

 

[doubtingmerle]

You sound less and less like Luther with every post!

I notice that with a lot of old timers here. The longer they have been here, the less dogmatic their writings.

 

[mark kennedy]

And that debt can be paid with, uh, blood?

The life Merle, that's the price of sin. I keep telling you, the life is in the blood. But hey, here's a head twister, God has the power of an indestructible life, how does God accept his own penalty for sin, death? That one kept me busy for years.

 

[mark kennedy]

There are a number of "theories of atonement" in Christianity, and I don't know if this is the thread to necessarily get into all of them. But basic here is that Jesus, in joining with our suffering and death has released us from sin and death and reconciled us to God; the word "atonement" itself was coined by William Tyndale (16th century) as a combination of at-one-ment, or the state or condition of being at one with to translate a somewhat difficult to translate word/concept in the New Testament.

The idea here does not necessarily require that a payment be made to someone. However, if we are going to talk Atonement Theories, then an important one from early Christianity is Ransom Theory:

Ransom Theory, the most common view of the ancient Christian Fathers (along with Recapitulation Theory) states that humanity is held in bondage to the devil and the devil exercises his dominion over the world through death; Christ's death is a ransom payment made to the devil which releases human beings from the dominion of the devil, from the dominion of sin, death, and hell. Ransom Theory goes on to state that in this ransom payment the devil is, in a way, tricked; and the payment received (the crucified Jesus) is truly the devil's downfall. Christ's descent into Hades (the place of death) and resurrection means the overthrow of Hades, the defeat of the devil, and the ruination of death and sin.

So going by Ransom Theory, if there is something/someone that the "payment" is being made, it is as a ransom payment to the devil for the redemption and release of captives (us), and subsequently the total collapse and destruction of the devil's power and kingdom.

Understandably some are uncomfortable with the idea of God acting as a trickster or the idea that God would ever seemingly capitulate to the evil demands of the devil; but the basic idea here: That Christ's suffering and death has released the world from bondage and slavery to sin, death, hell, and the devil and to come into the freedom and peace of God is very much a centrally Christian idea regardless of Atonement Theory.

The point isn't that Jesus' blood is itself some kind of cosmic currency, but rather that blood signifies the pouring out of life--Jesus offering Himself and His life for the purpose of freeing, releasing, rescuing the world.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm just wondering, if the ransom is paid to the Devil, then first of all why do we owe someone who is in the same condition and what does he gain from the payment? I mean he is caught in sin and lures us into the same trap, we get out but he is still stuck there. That sounds like a lousy deal for the Devil.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You sound less and less like Luther with every post!

"27] If now you are asked, What do you believe in the Second Article of Jesus Christ? answer briefly: I believe that Jesus Christ, true Son of God, has become my Lord. But what is it to become Lord? It is this, that He has redeemed me from sin, from the devil, from death, and all evil. For before I had no Lord nor King, but was captive under the power of the devil, condemned to death, enmeshed in sin and blindness.

28] For when we had been created by God the Father, and had received from Him all manner of good, the devil came and led us into disobedience, sin, death, and all evil, so that we fell under His wrath and displeasure and were doomed to eternal damnation, as we had merited and deserved. 29] There was no counsel, help, or comfort until this only and eternal Son of God in His unfathomable goodness had compassion upon our misery and wretchedness, and came from heaven to help us. 30] Those tyrants and jailers, then, are all expelled now, and in their place has come Jesus Christ, Lord of life, righteousness, every blessing, and salvation, and has delivered us poor lost men from the jaws of hell, has won us, made us free, and brought us again into the favor and grace of the Father, and has taken us as His own property under His shelter and protection, that He may govern us by His righteousness, wisdom, power, life, and blessedness.

31] Let this, then, be the sum of this article that the little word Lord signifies simply as much as Redeemer, i.e., He who has brought us from Satan to God, from death to life, from sin to righteousness, and who preserves us in the same. But all the points which follow in order in this article serve no other end than to explain and express this redemption, how and whereby it was accomplished, that is, how much it cost Him, and what He spent and risked that He might win us and bring us under His dominion, namely, that He became man, conceived and born without [any stain of] sin, of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, that He might overcome sin; moreover, that He suffered, died and was buried, that He might make satisfaction for me and pay what I owe, not with silver nor gold, but with His own precious blood. And all this, in order to become my Lord; for He did none of these for Himself, nor had He any need of it. And after that He rose again from the dead, swallowed up and devoured death, and finally ascended into heaven and assumed the government at the Father's right hand, so that the devil and all powers must be subject to Him and lie at His feet, until finally, at the last day, He will completely part and separate us from the wicked world, the devil, death, sin, etc." - Martin Luther's Large Catechism, Section II, Article II, 27-31

-CryptoLutheran

 

[doubtingmerle]

The life Merle, that's the price of sin. I keep telling you, the life is in the blood. But hey, here's a head twister, God has the power of an indestructible life, how does God accept his own penalty for sin, death? That one kept me busy for years.

Ah, blood is a metaphor for the life. God needed to see a life snuffed out before he could forgive us.

I don't see how God can say that he needs a life snuffed out, and when it happens, say that is what he was looking for so he could forgive.

 

[doubtingmerle]

That sounds like a lousy deal for the Devil.

Why would the devil want a dead body?

 

[mark kennedy]

Ah, blood is a metaphor for the life. God needed to see a life snuffed out before he could forgive us.

I don't see how God can say that he needs a life snuffed out, and when it happens, say that is what he was looking for so he could forgive.

As I've mentioned a couple of times, Jesus blood reflects the power of an indestructible life. Jesus said repeatedly that he was going to Jerusalem to be rejected by the chief priests and elders, that he would die and on the third day be raised. Paul makes it clear that the cross is the key to the gospel:

Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-3)
​

I seem to recall that I reminded you of this repeatedly when you were trying to defend the Carrier thesis. Doctrinally the way this works out is that we die to sin and are raised by the same power that resurrected Jesus. When Adam sinned we all, even being unborn, fell under a curse. In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die, which literally means, dying you shall die. The prophecy surrounding this is explicit, the metaphor of atonement is the idea of the Law from Adam to Christ required a price, the Law was the bookkeeper, the account had to be balanced.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm just wondering, if the ransom is paid to the Devil, then first of all why do we owe someone who is in the same condition and what does he gain from the payment? I mean he is caught in sin and lures us into the same trap, we get out but he is still stuck there. That sounds like a lousy deal for the Devil.

It's not that we owe the devil anything, it's that the devil has/had held us captive. The ransom is paid to free us from that unlawful and cruel captivity.

The devil thought this was a good deal, since he gets the very Son of God, but it is turned against him. His new prize is his defeat, destruction, and downfall.

-CryptoLutheran