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With the blood

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by doubtingmerle, Jan 12, 2019 at 10:23 AM.

  1. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Revelation 5:9 says:

    And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
    What does that even mean? How did Jesus purchase men unto God with blood?
     
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  2. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That's actually an allusion to the Old Testament Levitical system. The Lamb featured prominently in the sin offerings which were offered daily. The sacrifice of the peace offering which was the only sacrifice that the offerer actually ate before the Lord. The lamb was the main course in the Passover, from the Exodus on. What this is probably alluding to is the Day of Atonement, where the blood of the Lamb was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat. A lot of people get busy cross referencing Revelations with the prophets, personally I think there is more to be gained by understanding how it draws from Leviticus.

    So what does it mean? One the life is in the blood, (Lev. 17:11) when it talks about the blood of the Lamb here it's speaking of the power of an indestructible life.

    And this point is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, one who has become a priest not by a law of succession, but by the power of an indestructible life. (Hebrews 7:15-16)
    You have to take some time and consider what this meant to a first century Jew. You start talking about the blood of the Lamb, a pious Jew reading this would know exactly what the writer was talking about. He is talking about a sacrifice.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Yes. His Own Blood, THE ATONEMENT for men's sins. (the ONLY WAY)
     
  4. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Ok, Jesus purchased people with his own blood. Who did he make this payment to? To God? Why would a God of the universe ask that Jesus pay him with blood?
     
  5. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    To save people like you and me and all who love Him, who are called according to His Purpose.
     
  6. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There are a number of theories related to that:

    Atonement in Christianity


    This one will give you more of the New Testament witness on the issue:

    “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor. 5:21). Likewise, the Apostle Peter explained that Jesus “himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness” (1 Peter 2:24). (Why Is the Substitutionary Atonement Essential? Table Talk)
    Our sin was imputed to Christ, so that the righteousness of Christ could be imputed to us, if you would like to learn a little about the theological language involved:

    And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered G3049 with the transgressors. (Mark 15:28)​

    For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned G3049 among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. (Luke 12:37)
    The word is imputed, it's translated other ways 'numbered' and 'reckoned' for example. The Greek word is logizomai (λογίζομαι G3049)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019 at 11:26 AM
  7. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    No theories needed.
    It is clearly written in God's Word.
     
  8. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life O Lord, do not treat me as I have treated others! Supporter

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    The Greek verb behind purchase carries the sense of redeem. Understood within the context of Biblical literature, this means to secure release from an obligation or penalty. The idea is that Jesus released people from the penalty of the Law by suffering the penalty in their place. All of humanity is under the God's covenant curse because of sin, but Jesus purchased a group of people out from under this curse by suffering the curse in their place. This group is no longer liable to the curse because of the blood of Jesus and now belong to God in a redemptive sense. Jesus' oblation is an offering to God. So yes, it is a payment (metaphorically speaking) to God which makes up for all the sins of Jesus' people.

    There are many biblical concepts and contexts that you have to understand for this to make sense. Such as:
    1. Covenant
    2. Covenant blessings and curses
    3. Federal headship
    4. Sin
    5. God's holiness
    This is why Christianity is a worldview. It only makes sense when taken altogether. Trying to understand the atonement in the setting of a post-enlightenment, modern, or post-modern worldview will be more difficult.
     
  9. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    There are a couple of different ways of understanding it, Christian scholars have pondered this over the centuries, and written about it at length.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    There's One Way, as Yahweh Says. He REJOICES to REVEAL SALVATION and everything about SALVATION to little children, and HIDES IT from scholars.
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I believe....

    1. 7-Candlesticks - Seven church congregations - Messianic, Martyr, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Wesleyan, Charismatic.
    2. 7-Stars - All the Christians in the above congregation
    3. 7-Seals- The book is the Lambs Book of Life where all the saved have their names entered. The Seven Seals seal each congregation.

    [​IMG]
    If this is not the Lambs Book of Life why all the ado?

    And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:1-4

    Christ Jesus was worthy to open the book! His sacrifice was approved of God the Father therefore all the Saints can enter heaven. Which warrants much joy, singing, and ado.

    And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; - Revelation 5:9
     
  12. paul1149

    paul1149 that your faith might rest in the power of God Supporter

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    The Bible is clear that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". Sin cannot simply be overlooked or superficially pardoned. Restoration demands a price, or justice is undone and the entire creation spirals into moral chaos. Thus the life of a perfect man had to be imputed to the race of Adam in order to restore their perfection and their standing with God. You can learn a lot about this by studying the book of Hebrews in the NT, and the OT pattern of animal sacrifices, including even the animal slain to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness after their fall, serve as patterns to alert us as to what Christ would eventually fulfill.
     
  13. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    I know what your saying, scholars talk about penal substitution, ransom theory and a couple of others, they are all pretty much saying the same thing. Basically the idea of atonement in the New Testament is the idea of a debt that must be paid for sin, Jesus takes our place on the cross and pays that debt, so that he can provide the righteousness we need to fellowship with God. When Jesus was on the cross, he says it is finished and the veil of the Temple is torn in two. Atonement in the Old Testament was paid with the blood of the Lamb sprinkled on the mercy seat once a year. When Jesus died on the cross that debt was settled once and for all.

    Theologians have squabbled over this for centuries, but usually coming to the same basic concept. Jesus died for our sins, indeed it's simple, a child could understand.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  14. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    That lamp, was just outside the Holy of Holies, it was solid gold and filled with oil, the fire could not be allowed to go out. On the other side of the room were the shewbread, basically bread mixed with incense that would be burnt later on the altar. Jesus uses that lamp to symbolize his church, it also makes a pretty good analogy for the gifts of the Holy Spirit btw, they are generally listed in groups of seven. Anyway, the bread sounds like the word, incense being mixed in symbolic of prayer I would say. So in the room outside the Holy of Holies you have the ministry of the church, the word of God and prayer. Then you come to the veil, God himself is in there, you cannot look at God and live because of sin. Jesus goes in first, sprinkling his blood on the mercy seat, making atonement and now you can enter the throne room of grace boldly.

    You have to get into the Levitical imagery a little to get the concept of atonement.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  15. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    What word are you thinking of here TOL, there are a couple the fit the bill you are describing? Is it the one of Atonement, imputed? Just curious really, I've been into a study on this for a little while now.
     
  16. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I would agree, except....

    The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;- Rev 1:20 - Rev 2:1

    Christ Jesus walks among the seven congregations and holds the congregations in his right hand...
    [​IMG]
     
  17. mark kennedy

    mark kennedy Natura non facit saltum Supporter

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    Well of course he does, that's the whole idea, Jesus tending to the illumination of the church, keeping it filled with oil. He warns the churches he can take that candlestick away if they don't repent, not all of them but certain ones. Later you see the menorah blazing before the throne, apparently the early church managed to get it together and had a thriving ministry, with some issues early. I was just pointing out the church is just outside the Holy of Holies, we can only take the sinner so far. In order to pass into the presence of God Jesus has to take you there. He only does that because he first made atonement, if you shrink back he isn't going to be happy, you have to take those last few steps with him.

    Grace and peace,
    Mark
     
  18. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    Well sure, you think Jesus paid blood to save us, but why did it require blood? If God wanted to forgive, why did he not just forgive?

    And if the price is paid was blood, who did he pay that blood to?
     
  19. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    If someone else is reckoned with my sin, and I am reckoned with his righteousness, isn't that, by definition, an accounting error? Isn't that, by definition, unjust?

    But OK, so God reckons us as good. Great! Why does that require blood?
     
  20. doubtingmerle

    doubtingmerle I'll think about it. Supporter

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    OK, so its not the blood that counts? The important thing is that Jesus suffered?

    How can God not forgive us until he sees his son suffer, and then, after he sees his son suffer, say that now he can forgive us? One would think that would make it harder to forgive, not easier.
     
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