With all your heart?

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
I often hear Reformed and some other Protestants suggest that everything not done for God's Glory is sin. Are there any specific parts of the Bible that are used to support that view?

Are there morally neutral acts in your theology? If I go to the supermarket and buy a bottle of orange juice because I enjoy the taste of oranges, I am not sure why this should be considered a sin, unless I think "Lord, I seek to glorify Thee by buying this orange juice" before heading out to the store.

Here’s the scripture part.

Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
— 1 Corinthians 10:31

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
— 1 Peter 4:11

Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
— Colossians 3:17

As to orange juice, how are you able to enjoy it? How are you able to purchase it? How are you able to even get to the store? Should you be thankful that God has provided for you to not only purchase it, but enjoy its taste and benefits?

The fact that those thoughts haven’t crossed your mind show that you are not always loving God with all your heart.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

Agallagher said:
@Hammster do you trust Jesus Christ for paying for your sins?

I guess that is really what it boils down to. He has helped me with my addictions I have had in my life that have effected me for the past 5 years. Just by knowing that the Lord Jesus Christ died for me and my sins. Those addictions involved at drugs, and porn addiction. He has helped me with my manipulation tactics on others. The more am able to admit these things, the more it helps me falling back into those sins, by the spirit inside of me given by God through faith.

None of this makes me better than anyone else though. Everyone is struggling with something, and some people are not willing to admit it due to shame and guilt they feel about it. Holding those things in, in the end kill a lot of the ability for growth in the Lord Yeshua Christ.

Everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions, all accountable to God alone.

Everyone that is a believer is loved by God all equal. No matter what sins they are in. It's a battle between the flesh vs the spirit, and the choice of which one you are going to influence is up to the individual.

There are all kinds of different measures of faith for all these individuals. Some super close to God almost perfect, some not as close but still remember what God has taught them. Romans 12:3

I’m not sure how this applies to the OP.

Albion · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
Why not? Our Lord instructs us to be perfect, does he not?

That is the ideal. If it were adhered to by us, always and without exception, we'd be just and right in God's eyes. However, the Bible also says that the just man falls seven times a day, so we can conclude that a Savior was needed.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

zoidar said:
When Jesus tells us to love God with all our heart, is he talking about sinless perfection? Very few would say we can live in sinless perfection. Do you think Jesus demands that of us?

I think so. God hates sin. Why would He make exceptions?

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

lsume said:
Yes we can. However, first you must experience His Perfect Love. I believe that you must be born again to know this Love. It has seemed to me of late that anyone who is gifted to taste of God’s Love would Love Him back.

I didn’t ask if we can love God. That’s inherent with believers. We love because He first loved us. But our flesh prevents us from loving perfectly. However, we will do so in eternity.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

zoidar said:
"The new heart enables us to follow God’s law in the manner it should be followed."

Well, that's exactly what Jesus means when he says we are to love God with all our heart. At least that's my undestanding.

But you still sin.

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Albion said:
I thought it went more definitely to the point you raised. A half-dozen others that might have been cited seemed to me to be less clear or forceful.

This says that the man who isn't converted cannot know what is right and wrong, not in the sense that God sees it. That means, necessarily, that such a person is in sin.

Thanks. I think that is a slightly different issue (condemned by Trent at Session 6, Canon 7, if I do not recall). But I would agree that he is in a state of "sin" as a consequence of Adam's fall, of course (as were all of us before our baptism).

From what I understood from what @Hammster wrote, he was taking the position that even everything that a post-conversion "saved" Christian does is sin, if not done for the explicit glory of God. But perhaps I misunderstood him, or that view.

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Often people say that if they did not mean to do something it is not sin. More confidently, they say that if they did not mean to do something consciously rebelliously, it is not sin. While I agree that God "looks on the heart to judge the deeds" it is not Biblical to say that unconscious deeds are not sinful, nor that neutral deeds even exist. While getting the orange juice is not in itself a sin, the heart at enmity with God colors every deed, thought, intent and emotion in a person. Even for the saved, rebellion insidiously makes its way into everything it can.

Meanwhile: No, in my opinion, there are no neutral deeds. In fact, everything that is not of faith is sin. But with God all things are YES. It's a little like the 60's sound of "It's all good, man!" I don't think even a rock is neutral --it is good. God made it. It is here for God's sake.

I have to say though, the notion that our consciously attributing or dedicating all attempts at good deeds (or mundane deeds, for that matter,) to the glory of God sounds a bit more self-important that how God sees us (not to mention it can be maddening, in the end). We have nothing to commend ourselves to God. No ability native to us to even begin to know what glorifies God or just how a thing glorifies God. When God can create those he has consigned to eternal torment, and this glorifies him (Romans 9), how can we sound those depths and know what we are talking about, to be able to decide (and God have to respect our frail, silly, fitful willingness) what glorifies him? It is better to live in him, than to decide what is and what is not presentable to him. It is rebellion to think we can or even that we must do something in and of ourselves to qualify us for his respect.

I wish I could remember who it was, so I could get the exact quote, something along the lines of: "It is impossible to improve worship by saying something about God that he has not said about himself."

Thanks for explaining your view of it. Interesting.

mlepfitjw · Dec 15, 2020

@Hammster I erased it, my apologize thank you for your help!

zoidar · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
Why not? Our Lord instructs us to be perfect, does he not?

If he demands us to be perfect as in sinless perfection, we are all dead, because no one is perfect. If we are allowed to fail, and ask for God's forgiveness when we do fail, and that is what you mean by perfect, sure.

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

zoidar said:
When Jesus tells us to love God with all our heart, is he talking about sinless perfection? Very few would say we can live in sinless perfection. Do you think Jesus demands that of us?

To that, I only repeat: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments".

No, I take that back. I also add: we have the 'old man' still in us, until the day we die. You want "demand" to imply "attainable". I do see God has provided a way, but I do not see it possible, by God's design, except for Christ, who was without sin. Particularly for the lost it can be shown that though God demands of them holiness, it is, according to Scripture not even possible for them, they have no way to obey, because they always WILL not, being at enmity with God.

Maybe I'm stepping out of line saying this at this point in the thread, but I think this is what Hammster was building up to: "The command does not imply the ability to obey the command." It may sound outrageous, yet even among humans (not just with God) we see this every day. You may argue then, that with God it MUST be otherwise --just, truthful, straightforward-- he would not justly command something he did not expect to happen (I would interject here, What does "expect" mean, when it comes to God?). I am reminded of the tree that out of season he looked to for fruit, and when it didn't produce any he cursed it and it died. That's not FAIR! we want to say. But we know better. God can do as he wishes --including to command us to do something we are unable to do.

But, if we want to obey, he has provided a way.

zoidar · Dec 15, 2020

Albion said:
That is the ideal. If it were adhered to by us, always and without exception, we'd be just and right in God's eyes. However, the Bible also says that the just man falls seven times a day, so we can conclude that a Savior was needed.

Where can I find this "the just man falls seven times a day"? I don't think I have heard it before.

PaulCyp1 · Dec 15, 2020

Our fallen state prevents us from loving God (or anyone else) perfectly. Yet, the grace of God allows us to experience a certain measure of His love, for Him and for one another.

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
Here’s the scripture part.

Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
— 1 Corinthians 10:31

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
— 1 Peter 4:11

Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
— Colossians 3:17

Thank you. The verses do not explicitly support your view, but I can at least understand the inference that you use to reach your conclusion.

As to orange juice, how are you able to enjoy it? How are you able to purchase it? How are you able to even get to the store? Should you be thankful that God has provided for you to not only purchase it, but enjoy its taste and benefits?

Are those serious or rhetorical questions? Regardless, yes, we should be thankful to God for the food that we find on our plates, which is precisely why we say grace before meals.

The fact that those thoughts haven’t crossed your mind show that you are not always loving God with all your heart.

I assume that this is more of a general statement than one directed at me in particular. Yes, I agree. Someone who eats, drinks, or otherwise enjoys life without having God in mind and not giving him thanks for it, would not be loving God with all of his heart.

But is that possible? I say yes. Why don't we start right now and try?

BNR32FAN · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
Can we, in our fallen-but-redeemed state here on Earth, love God with all of our heart? Or does our flesh prevent us from doing so?

Yes I think we are capable of loving God with all our heart.

zoidar · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
I think so. God hates sin. Why would He make exceptions?

I should make it clearer what I meant: "Do you think Jesus demands that (sinless perfection) of us to be saved?"

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

zoidar said:
Where can I find this "the just man falls seven times a day"? I don't think I have heard it before.

The quote is: "for though the righteous fall seven times, they rise again, but the wicked stumble when calamity strikes." --Proverbs 24:16

I don't think he used it correctly. It is not talking about sin as such, though certainly sin can fit the principle too. I.e. I don't think he can use that to show that righteous people sin. That is found elsewhere.

BNR32FAN · Dec 15, 2020

grasping the after wind said:
I don't think either of the Two Great commandments are humanly possible to achieve . We can only do the best we can to love God and our neighbor as intensely but imperfectly as our nature allows us to.

Why do you think it is not possible for us to love God with all our heart?

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
The command does not imply the ability to obey the command.

Yep.

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

zoidar said:
If he demands us to be perfect as in sinless perfection, we are all dead, because no one is perfect. If we are allowed to fail, and ask for God's forgiveness when we do fail, and that is what you mean by perfect, sure.

Well I can instruct my son to get an A+ on the test. That doesn't mean I am putting him out of the house if he gets a B.

With all your heart?

Can you love God with all of your heart?

Yes

No

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