With all your heart?

fhansen · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Your first sentence there deals with the subject of the OP. The second does not.

So, it appears you are agreeing we cannot completely obey, hence, we may conclude, we cannot love him with the whole heart. We are super-conquering, but have not yet completely stamped out, sin.

Yes, love is opposed to sin. The more we love the more that sin is stamped out. Someday our love will be complete but as I said, probably not until heaven. It’s a process, a journey, but one we’re obliged to be on, because it’s simply the right thing, Gods way, a good journey.

fhansen · Dec 15, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
In order to define the "heart" , we need to understand the meaning and use in Jewish literature, how it is used and how it relates to the New Covenant.
The heart is the seat of volition. It is the conscience resolve experienced by few under the Old Covenant and all under the New Covenant through regeneration. To "love with all your heart and soul" denotes that very conscience resolve. This is the gift given to the true beliver through the power of His Holy Spirit. The restoration and connection to our Creator, the Father. To lack this understanding puts into question the core of the Gospel. Blessings.

I like this. And the heart as being the seat of volition emphasizes the fact that love is always a choice even as it’s a gift, the choice to embrace and act upon that gift, and be changed or transformed by it.

mlepfitjw · Dec 15, 2020

The last thing as a Christian that is needed from any other believing Christian is to be condemned on anything that they see as sin, to be seen as they are not worthy of God's love, while they are suffering in the flesh vs the spirit like the rest of us.(sorry it is offtopic)

98cwitr · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
Can we, in our fallen-but-redeemed state here on Earth, love God with all of our heart? Or does our flesh prevent us from doing so?

With a new heart, given by God, we can. Scripture says so: Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, John 3.

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

Agallagher said:
The last thing as a Christian that is needed from any other believing Christian is to be condemned on anything that they see as sin, to be seen as they are not worthy of God's love, while they are suffering in the flesh vs the spirit like the rest of us.(sorry it is offtopic)

Why is that? No, really, why is that? How can any of us be worthy of God's love? We are not. Self-esteem should come from God's use of us, God's assessment of us, and the reason he made us, not from our accomplishments. We are NOT worthy. Only Christ is worthy.

Lol, obedience already causes enough self-esteem (see CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters). Disobedience should straighten us back up from our pride, and make us desire Christ in us.

We are not complete beings, we humans, and will not be --even the Redeemed-- until we see Him as He is. So it is ludicrous to suppose that we can contend with God as peers on his level, to be dignified by his respect or even his notice.

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

98cwitr said:
With a new heart, given by God, we can. Scripture says so: Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, John 3.

I don't see how those three show we can live in sinless perfection --particularly when I see the same Scriptures saying, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.",

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

98cwitr said:
With a new heart, given by God, we can. Scripture says so: Ezekiel 36, Jeremiah 31, John 3.

Where specifically?

fhansen · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Lol, obedience already causes enough self-esteem (see CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters). Disobedience should straighten us back up from our pride, and make us desire Christ in us.

I think we might want to be careful there?-disobedience is not superior to obedience . But, yes, sin/disobedience have one primary "good", in that we might ultimately come to hate and reject them, in favor of love of God and neighbor.

I think it depends on the reason for obedience though; not all obedience being the real thing. I've quoted Basil of Caesarea, a 4th century believer, quite a few times and always appreciate this:
"If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children."

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

fhansen said:
I think we might want to be careful there?-disobedience is not superior to obedience . But, yes, sin/disobedience have one primary "good", in that we might ultimately come to hate and reject them, in favor of love of God and neighbor.

I don't think I even intimated such a thing. But God Himself says that He uses disobedience/ rebellion for good --in fact, in at least one instance, that He even meant it for good. What then, should we sin that grace may abound? --Of course not! But we do, and it does.

But this is off the subject of the OP

fhansen · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
I don't think I even intimated such a thing. But God Himself says that He uses disobedience/ rebellion for good --in fact, in at least one instance, that He even meant it for good. What then, should we sin that grace may abound? --Of course not! But we do, and it does.

Well said.

Mark Quayle said:
But this is off the subject of the OP

Yep

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
So they sinned.

That a person has sinned is practically the easiest thing in the world to prove, and nobody denies it, so I am not sure why you have devoted so much time to the topic.

This is the crux of the matter: The fact that a person has sinned does not mean that he is incapable of loving God with all of his heart. This is what you must prove for your argument to hold, but you have done nothing to prove it.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
That a person has sinned is practically the easiest thing in the world to prove, and nobody denies it, so I am not sure why you have devoted so much time to the topic.

This is the crux of the matter: The fact that a person has sinned does not mean that he is incapable of loving God with all of his heart. This is what you must prove for your argument to hold, but you have done nothing to prove it.

I thought you agreed that whenever one sins, they aren’t loving God with all their heart. Was that someone else?

Mark Quayle · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
That a person has sinned is practically the easiest thing in the world to prove, and nobody denies it, so I am not sure why you have devoted so much time to the topic.

This is the crux of the matter: The fact that a person has sinned does not mean that he is incapable of loving God with all of his heart. This is what you must prove for your argument to hold, but you have done nothing to prove it.

John 14: "15 If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Does that do the job?

1213 · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
Are you perfectly obedient?

If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.
John 5:31

However, I don’t think loving God from all of your heart means you are then also perfect.

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
I thought you agreed that whenever one sins, they aren’t loving God with all their heart. Was that someone else?

I totally agree with that. But you still have not proven what you need to prove for your argument to hold.

98cwitr · Dec 15, 2020

Hammster said:
Where specifically?

Ezekiel 36:26-28
New International Version

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Jeremiah 31:33
New International Version

33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

John 3:1-8
New International Version
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

Swag365 · Dec 15, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Does that do the job?

No.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

1213 said:
If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.
John 5:31

However, I don’t think loving God from all of your heart means you are then also perfect.

You can’t answer whether or not you are perfectly obedient?

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

Swag365 said:
I totally agree with that. But you still have not proven what you need to prove for your argument to hold.

I think I have.

Hammster · Dec 15, 2020

98cwitr said:
Ezekiel 36:26-28
New International Version

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 28 Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

Jeremiah 31:33
New International Version

33
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

John 3:1-8
New International Version
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus

3 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]

I’m not seeing how those passages are evidence that we always love God with all our hearts.

fhansen · Dec 15, 2020

1213 said:
However, I don’t think loving God from all of your heart means you are then also perfect.

FWIW, I pretty much believe now that such love, of God and neighbor, sums up righteousness and perfection for man. And that's also really why, simply, the Greatest Commandments are what they are. But it's a work of God's in us, as we come to recognize the supreme, unending value or worthiness of love- and the very Source of that love.

With all your heart?

Can you love God with all of your heart?

Yes

No

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